A herd bound horse?????

Question

Ok, this is the situation.

I have a 3 yr old TB mare who is a doll. She is absolutley fabulous except for the fact that when we ride at home, she is AWFUL. I can ride her WTC and do anything I want if its in the front yard within distance of her pasture buddies and she is fabulous. However if I take her out of sight she REFUSES to go forward. Its resulted in a rear since then and a loss of balance and she fell over top of me. I got back on and we kept working on it BUT the weirdest thing about it is that I trailer her into a lesson once a week and she is quiet quiet quiet. She ties, stands still and doesnt even wink at the other horses around her. (and its a busy place!). So away from home she is a dream come true. Totally focused and people watch her, she is incredible! But at home...she is rank about working! How would you solve this issue? Iam looking for opinions.

I have a training program of my own...so please no rude and stupid answers that are telling me the obvious. I realize we have a herd bound issue here. I have since seperated her on an individual turnout basis. She is getting a little better. Iam really interested to see how other trainers would solve this issue.

Thanks Everyone! :)

Answer 1

I had the same problem! But this Thoroughbred I had never reared, he was an older retired race Horse. I'm sorry but I worked with him over and over, I tried to figure what to I beat myself up, and at that time, we had no other Horses on the premises!

I was fighting a 17,3 hand high Horse, pound against pound and not getting no where.

Well, I found out later why.

The recent owners took him for a ride with his friends, and when Goliath decided to go home, after two miles out, the owner let him have his way.

Once a Horse has established a bad habit, as this. It is almost impossible to break it!

Now yours is very dangerous, falling on you. I am so happy you didn't get hurt, or even killed.

He may be a good Horse for a Stable where he could be used in a inside arena, for riding lessons, bit outside, forget it!

I would sell him for a lesson horse, for simply inside only.

I'm sorry to say, but even after working for Detroit Race Course and training many Horses. I had no other option but to sell this beautiful horse.

But the next Horse i bought, was a beautiful two for One candy, and I trained him before anyone else could touch him, and he was a great riding horse! We could go anywhere.

I'm sorry to say' You really should sell this horse, and get another, a better safe horse.

Answer 2

How important is it to get her to ride away from the herd?  I know it's not popular to give in to such things, which I wouldn't do unless I realized that it didn't matter all that much, and I didn't intend to sell the horse to become someone else's problem. Not every horse has to be able to do everything.  The only reason I bring this up is because some of these herd bound horses are extremely difficult to work with and correct.

Answer 3

You have some good answers and I will just briefly add a few things that might help.

You already know this horse is going to be difficult. I personally would put some more time into it, and then if it didn't improve I would sell her. I hear your opinion on selling, and part of me agrees that more people don't try to solve problems. But I am middle aged, have a full time job and a family, and I cannot afford to get seriously injured. A horse that is really challenging is alot more risk.  I would work through it myself for a while, but if things didn't change I would HAVE to quit, because I have to be careful with the dangerous chances I take.

Having said that, lets look at what you might do to improve things.

The idea of leading your horse on the trails is exactly where I'd start.  Use a rope halter, a long smooth rope and gloves, and carry a training stick.  Lead the horse in a non-threatening place, such as down your driveway.  Be prepared for problems, with a horse with this strong of issues she is likely to rear, spin or try to bolt back to the others. Be prepared to turn her head towards you so she gives you two eyes if she starts to act up, she cannot pull or back away easily if facing you.  If she rears allow her some rope, and then if possible crack her on the front legs or rib cage with the training stick. I would want her to quickly think that rearing was not a good option for her, even when she's scared.  It is dangerous to correct a horse when they rear, so be sure you don't get pulled into her.  If you cannot correct her during the rear, wait until her feet come down and then put her firmly to work.  Make her disengage her hindquarter from both directions, to pivot on the front, to back twenty or thirty feet.  Be firm and make her work.  When she is settled down, allow her to relax and then proceedure forward.  I wouldn't walk her too far, just a few hundred yards and then allow her to graze, if she will.  Then take her back home, allow her to graze there and then go back to the same place again.  I would NOT reward her when she's misbehaving, but I sure would try quickly to reward any try or cooperation when she leaves home.

The hard part will be - stick to leading her for about two weeks.  Get her really secure in one place, such as the driveway, and then build on that.  Have her go off to the right for a while, and then graze.  Have her go to the left, and graze.  Have her go farther and then graze.  Just keep adding to it.

If and when she becomes safe to lead away from the others, then I would start ground driving her.  You can start to lunge her and work her in circles somewhat away from home, perhaps lunge her in a clearing at the end of the driveway.  If you can consistently correct her when she is definant and disobedent, and calmly reward her through grazing, and relaxation when she is good, she should start to relax going on.

If and when you can safely ground drive her, then I would start back riding.  Work in her safe locations, use a one rein stop for correction when she misbehaves.  If necessary leave her halter and rope on, if she rears step off and put her to work and try to correct her in a safe way.  When you step off make sure its not a reward, but actually a true work correction, not anger but showing that misbehaving is making her life much more miserable than just cooperating. Slowly, slowly build on it.  This will take some time, I'm totally certain most people would not be able to stick with it long enough to see a huge change.  If you can ride/work with her 5-6 days a week would be best.

I would also do some tying away from the herd, out of sight, each day.  Tie her someplace totally safe, out of sight, and then leave her there for an hour or two.  Don't worry if she paws, fusses and throws a wreck, this is what you are going to expect.  Try to untie her if she is behaving somewhat better later, don't expect her to be perfect to untie her, but don't do it when she is in the middle of a full-thrown temper tantrum.  That's why she may have to be tied for several hours at a time for the first few days, after a while she will likely only need to be tied for 1/2 hour or so.  If it safe you may try giving her a haybag so she can eat while tied.  Most people quit after a few days of the horse acting like a monster, on average it takes 7-10 days of pawing and acting like fools before most horses settle down, and most people don't stick to it long enough.

I think this horse has potentil, but I still would have to ask myself if she's worth the risk.  If you put a month of steady work into it, and she still continues to through these huge wrecks, then you have some decisions to make.  Is she mentally ill?  (I truely believe there are horses with mental illness, and that cannot be changed)  Is she just spoiled?  Is she green?  Is she afraid?  Can you put in the time, effort and work to change those things?

Good luck and keep safe.  I recommend you always use a helmet, even f

Answer 4

I agree with fact that you have taken the first step to "weaning" her from her buddies, but as long as she has any contact, the problem will be latent.  I totally disagree with bringing her back to the herd when you have an issue of leaving the property/barn/other horses...it does nothing but reward this mare and reinforce her negative issues.  I have spent over 40 yrs training and retraining horses (not trying to brag, just trying to justify what I say to be tried and true methods).  Keep the ride quiet and without confrontation and without conflict...the quieter that you can keep it, the more of the lesson your horse will absorb.  If you get mad and want to "get even" for the inconvenience, you will get it returned to you 10 fold, so don't waste your time going there.  I have mentioned this method that I use on barn/herd bound horses many times and have received emails later, even from novice riders that...oh my, it does work!  I know that my methods work, at least on this issue...so, here it is and it is nothing new, you just have to be consistent and quiet and patient.  

Always ride with long, split reins, there is a lot more versatility in them and they are actually safer if you are riding a problem horse.  When you groom and tack up and get ready to ride away from the magnet to which your horse appears to be permanently attracted to, try to be very relaxed, try to not let her feel or be aware of the tension that is created by the fact that you know, sooner or later, she is either going to balk, attempt to rear, whirl around, put her head down and stall out, etc.  Just be ready to react at the first sign of this behavior.  I don't care if it's right outside the barn or 1/2 mile away from the barn, the process is the same.  Step off your horse and let your horse deal with the problem, she will work it out herself, with no hoopla, no punishment, no cursing, no nothing but a quiet learning situation.

At the slightest hint of balking, stop your horse, get off and tie the off rein around her neck just to get it out of the way.  Take the near rein and tie it through your near stirrup, keep in mind, the stirrup will give and make it easier on your horse's mouth, so compensate so that  if your horse should just want to walk back to the barn on her own, she will only go in circles.  When she decides to just stand quietly (could take 30 min, could only take 5 min) untie the rein and continue on with your trip.  It will happen again, repeat the process.  You may have to do this over a course of a couple of weeks, but the process is:  She fights against herself, with immediate punishment and reward.  (The punishment is that she cannot go back to the barn unless and until you get in the saddle) there is no fight, so she can stand and figure it out...you don't want to leave her tied around a nanno second after she decides to just stand there and maybe mouth her bit.  You are gaining ground at this point, and you still don't want to start a fight.  Believe me, this method is the least punitive, the least likely to get you or the horse hurt, and the most likely one that will work...just be patient, consistent and don't let her get by with it even once, or you go back to square one.  You will find almost immediately that she will start her nonsense further away from the barn and the incidents will happen less frequently, I guarantee you.

Answer 5

as you said seperating her is a good idea

Ride her as far away as you can from the herd, the minute she acts up, turn her around and bring her back to see the herd. Then go out again, and try to go further, and once she gets uncomfortable, bring her back and do it again. It is a long process but it does work.

Also try doing some groundwork in the pasture with the other horses, so she realizes that even when she is close to her herd that she still has to respect you.

I'd try doing some Parelli work with her, like the 7 games.

"an individual turnout basis" - What does that mean? Is she turned out all the time or in a stall? I'd say put her outside 24/7, not only is it healthier for her, but it can help solve some problems.

Edit: what about saddling her up, putting the bit in and such, then hook a lead rope to the bit and lead her forward. Would she go then? Try then putting someone on her back then leading her forward.

Get to the point where she won't move and turn her around and go back. Let her choose where to go, than you choose where she goes.

Also see if you might be able to pony another horse along with you to get her used to going past that one point.

Answer 6

Dallas,

I've had a few in training recently and read some books - here's what I've learned to break herd, buddy or barn sour-ness:

You must teach the horse that when you are together, if she doesn't do as requested she has an alternative and that alternative won't be a fun as just doing what you ask - in fact, I just worked on this last night with loading my horse in the trailer.

Here's how it works:

Ride your horse in her safe, comfortable area - when you are prepared to ask her to leave that area, and prepared with knowing her reaction - wait for it - then take her back to her comfort zone and make her work - this could be working on flexion, working in circles - doing something that makes her constantly THINK.   Then ask her to leave her comfort zone again.  If she gets further outside than she did before, allow her to rest and praise her.  Doing this over and over for a few weeks or maybe 10 sessions will releive her of the uneasiness.

You must also understand that this current reaction may reflect on your leadership skills - if you ask worried when you want her to be brave, she won't be - she'll sense you are worried and figure if you're worried, she should be too.  So taking this in small steps is necessary.

Here's what I just learned - my 7 year old mare is very unconfident outside an enclosed area - she's happy to work in an arena and do fun things, but she's scared when we leave and looking for scary things.  I learned to do my work in the enclosed area for a while, focusing on keeping her head down (when worried, her head raises) and getting the response I require.  After that, I must leave the safe area and go as far as I can get her to go without difficulty.  Let's say I get 20 yards out into the scary field.  I might just allow her to stand quietly if she will (but if this is a scary spot in general, she won't). or maybe get off and end the ride there allowing her to graze or share an apple or something - this shows her that this is really a pleasant place to be because it represents relaxation.

If she won't get far and won't relax enough to simply dismount and enjoy relaxation, we go back to her comfort area and work.  Maybe, depending on her situation, we go back out and try it again and she may be more accepting this time - if it was very stressful, then we go back to work, work a while on something that was last successful, then call it a day.

You must be cautious of knowing exactly what's work and what's relief though - standing around or walking in circles isn't work - trotting hard, changing directions is.

Last nite, I decided I'd teach my younger horse to load by herself (rather than I leading her in) I'd seen it done on TV but didn't ever think I could achieve this.  This mare is much more headstrong - so I took her to the trailer, asked her to get in, then lunged her hear the trailer when she refused - we then asked again, she dropped her nose to the trailer, then backed off, so we lunged some more.  she got where she thought if she refused, I'd just let her run in circles - so the work vs. do what I want is delicate and takes practice.  I finally started flipping the end of the rope on her rump to encourage her to move into the trailer - mind you, she's loaded but only by being led, she knows what I want.  She took a strike at me, so I made her work in fast trot at tight circles flipping that rope on her rump until she signed and just kept trotting, then I asked her to load again - and she did it.  It's like she said "OK, I won't get away with this, I'll do it.  We went in and out of the trailer about 10 times which was my goal - I never had to get in with her after the first couple times to back out rather than turn around.  I learned the value of a longer rope too.  Our next session will require she stand quietly in the trailer for 10 minutes - she'll go in, come right back out and I'll send her in.  She'll say "well why am I working to get out when you'll just send me back in?".  I didn't believe I could do this before until that trainer told me how he'd done it with my older horse - I honestly didn't think I could do it last night, but I did.

buck Brannaman has a couple great books where he tackles these situations - "faraway horses" and "believe" - they're nice, easy reads and entertaining if you get the chance.

Good Luck!

Answer 7

Does she act up if you lead her instead of riding her?

Try walking the trail with her. You can even walk out with her and ride her back if she's behaving. Bring some treats and make it a pleasant experience. You may have to start out with another horse as her buddy.