A personal God and free will can not co-exist.?

Question

apeman: These are my lunchtime ramblings, not an article.

Answer 1

That was well put. I came to the same conclusion not so long ago. I thought all about this before and I myself couldn't put it any better. Why would someone worship a malevolent stalker in the sky....

Answer 2

Yes they can. There are a lot of things that I know that I don't cause.

Answer 3

i do what i want, when i want. thats free will to me and i still serve God.  

Answer 4

yes. no paradox. i skipped from your question to your conclusion. the rest is way to freakin long and all moot for me, because the answer is yes. your parents give birth to you. you choose to leave home at 12 and become a child crack w***e because it sounds like fun. you choose. they still exist. no paradox.

Answer 5

First read Romans 1.

It will explain in the middle of the chapter those who God knew would be stubborn and never willing to turn from sin, and how they were given over to their own ways. (Hence, why we will all be judged and held accountable, because some are so set in their ways and will NEVER be willing to repent) Those whom God softens, God foreknew as Ephesians 1 tells us those who are saved God predestined. Does God know all? Yes. Does he know us before we are born? Yes. Does He predestine us before we are born? Well yes- the scriptures are clear on that. (See Romans 9)

Romans 1 however EXPLAINS why some will never be saved...because they love their sin so much, God gave them up to it.

But there are many out there who are going to repent, who are going to be drawn by the Holy Spirit...when they hear the word of truth.

So you see what God knows we don't know. Gods ways are above our ways and His thoughts are NOT our thoughts. We are sinful creatures, there is no good in us according to Romans 3. That is why we need Jesus Christ-- it is only through Him that righteousness can be imputed to us, that we can be made clean, renewed and given eternal life. (1 John 5:20)

Everything God does IS Good.(James 1:17) Man who is not broken of a prideful spirit may not think so, but the day his pride is gone and he humbles himself before the Lord, that is the day his eyes are opened and the truth of God sets in. But pride will keep you far from God. See James 4:6

God is JUST. He is HOLY. He is RIGHTEOUS. He is LOVE. He is MERCY. And His salvation is now. He did not have to die on the cross, yet He did willingly- so that we who believe would have redemption through Him. We all deserve h**l because of sin. But out of God's love, He came and made a way for us to pass from judgment to life.....now that is love. And so amazing! Thank you Lord!

I hope and pray you truly take the time to seek the Lord over all of this- not just lean on your own understanding but seek the Lord and humble yourself before Him. Because after this life it will be too late.

Jesus says in Mark 1:15 "The time has come the kingdom of God is near, repent and believe the good news!"

If you died today with a hard heart against God, you would have to face him in judgment. Are you willing to risk that? Do you truly want to know His truth? His love? Understand why He did what He did on the cross, and how he defeated death so we could live? Feel free to e mail me, really....I'd love to talk more about it if you would like~

Answer 6

The false premise in the article makes some assumptions that aren't the only choices.  First everyone, whether they realize it or not have a personal God, if they are a believer.  Secondly, if it were just an illusion of free will like the lower life forms, then all of our choices would be rational.  They are not.  My answer, they can co-exist.

*dude,  no offense meant.  It is well thought out and reasoned.  I still think article is a good way to refer to it.

Answer 7

Beware in case any person spoil you through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradtion of men, according to the principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

(colossians.2:8)

Answer 8

Yeah, I have heard of the 'butterfly affect', a butterfly farts in New Zealand and ultimately produces a hurricane in the Atlantic.

But, in reference to free will.  God is omniscient and outside of time.  He knows everything that has happened and that will happen.  We don't.  We also really do not have a completely free will.  There is some much internal and external pressure for us to rebel against God, that it is impossible to see our will as free.

Truth is the original humans did have a free will and they chose to rebel against God, anyone of us would have done the same.  At this time God regularly reaches down into time and history and draws individuals to Himself, He doesn't have to, because we all rebel, HE just does it out of love.  Ain't that grand.  

And no, I also did not wade through the entirety of your post.  Good grief have you ever heard that brevity is the soul of wit.

Anyone and everyone (even the starving child, or the stubborn atheist) who seeks God will find Him.  WE get h**l the old fashioned way, we earn it.

Wow.  You hate christians.  You do not even know me, you barely know anything about christianity and you hate me?  That is incredible.  You have been listening to your high school teachers too much.

Yes, rebelling against the One who made you and loves you, that seems pretty bad.  I think a bit strange too.

Answer 9

A well thought out question, and well written as well (I see more typos in most people's question itself than in your many paragraph description...lol). First, in trying to imagine how freewill and God's sovereignty go together, imagine if you were God and knew ahead of time the freewill choices your children would make. Then imagine you designed a world that would be most effective in helping them to grow closer to you and closer to perfection, taking into account every aspect of their character and being. That is deep and hard for our minds to grasp, but that is essentially what has taken place.

Regarding hardening one's heart, I believe that God does not force us against our own will to make a certain decision. Rather, He often places greater temptations around some than others (which is why we can't rightfully judge one another or compare one to another). And we ourselves allow our hearts to be hardened because of those temptations.

For instance, consider the Pharoah. God decided that he would be born into great wealth, and into great power. God was the one who made certain he would be ruler by determining the family he would be born into. So that part of his life had nothing to do with his own abilities or decisions. Only God had control of that fate, as He does with us since all of our circumstances in life are different. But consider how the Pharoah's heart was hardened. Imagine that to let all those slaves go would be a great financial loss for his kingdom's economy, and even a threat to his position of power. He had alot more at stake than the average citizen....riches, comfortable living, prestige, authority, etc. Interestingly, what ultimately caused him to bend a little so as to let them go was that he lost his own son. This demonstrates he was not simply a cold hearted man, but one much like you and me. His love for his own son for a moment overcame all his desires for worldly things. But you and I cannot really judge him either, because the temptations he faced were very different than the temptations you and I face. I believe his heart was hardened by these things and by his own selfishness, not by God's oppression over his freewill.

Answer 10

We have free will to make the choice to begin with.  People who have given their lives to the Lord are not trying to seek their own will, generally speaking.

Didn't read the book you've posted there, sorry.

Answer 11

the paradox.

I agree in this...Christianity IS a paradox, but it's real, none the less.

This is why I get excited reading the Christian Existentialist, Kierkigaard. http://www.ldolphin.org/Provocations.pdf

Answer 12

When you live your life on a line of extremes you can find paradox in anything.  You can't take the most extreme cases of Christianity and apply them to God.  Just because a Christian at one point in history has said, "God made me do it." doesn't mean that you can apply that to all Christians.  God is far more complex then human logic can express.  I've read your entire post and I think I can help you understand this paradox.

Think of your favorite football team. The coach of that team has a plan, much like God does.  He wants the best for the team, but the best for this team cannot be achieved by just one athlete.  While the coach of this team has multiple plays, each player plays his own part in the execution of that plan.  Some men were built husky, and are best fit for the offensive line, others tall and fast who make good receivers.  Just because you want believe that you are a receiver when you aren't built to be one, doesn't mean you are.  

God puts different people in different situations because He created them specific to the part they play in his ultimate plan.  (I think the foundation of your logic is flawed due to your disbelief in intelligent design.)  He gives them the choice to step into that role or not, much like the coach of the above team.  What usually happens tho, is people focus more on their discontentment with where they are at and in turn quit the team.  If you are only looking at the extremes of free choice and predestination you will always find paradox.

Always in love,

John

Answer 13

I think that your logic is in part, at least, a little flawed. Simply because previous actions of other people or societies dictate the kind of world we live in does not mean that (A. That world can not be changed or (B. That our behavior as individuals with at least some access to truth can not run concurrent to that world system. I don't think that simple because every cause has an effect that it is safe to assume that their is predestination. As a matter of fact, the opposite may be true. Every cause does have an effect but that effect does not necessarily mean that we experience the same thing. If the worlds issues predetermined our behavior, would their not be some kind of unity of thought and action. But the opposite is true, their is diversity of thought and action. That diversity reflects the way people choose to respond to these situations. Thus their is at least some free will involved.

Just a thought....

Answer 14

The fact that people still believe in supernatural forces to this day is really what gets me.

Answer 15

I have read your entire post and you make a decent arguement.  And I agree that there is a some issues with the concept of a all-knowing and all-powerful God and free will.  

I personally believe in free will and a personal God.  I would define a personal God because chooses to reveal himself to us and nothing more.  God gives us free will and I believe that he limits his power and his foreknowledge in order to allow us to have truly free will.  He has the ability for us not to have free will but God backs up and leaves room for us to choose.  God does not want us to be "puppets".

God has created the world and set it in motion.  The things we experience today are greatly due to human free will and natural law.  Yet, God does choose to interviene.  He rips off the fabric covering of our cosmos and acts and some of God's greatest accomplishments has been through people who submitted FREELY to allow God to work through them.  (i.e. Martin Luther King Jr.)  

I am a Christian and I have free will BUT I freely choose to give up my right to choice.  I freely choose for God's will to be done in me and through me.  And I desire to completely submit to God Almighty, King of the Universe.  Though sometimes I admit my free will gets in the way of my complete submission but its my heart's desire to freelly choose to surrender to Him.  

I do not believe God is directly involved with every little thing that we expereince or that can occur and my theology does not negate that I should.