A question for my Jewish friends regarding Jesus?

Question

I've been following a discussion on another forum I visit, and read the following statement.

"Initially his (Jesus's) followers thought they were following a new branch of Judaism known as 'The Way'. It only because known as Christianity after Jews and Romans mocked them with the new name! (Jesus actually wanted his followers to return to traditional, God-centric worship, rather than feeling that they had to use the symbols and rituals of their leaders to reach God)"

Is this statement true? I apologise for my lack of knowledge, but I don't want to enter a debate without being sure of the facts.

Shalom and bright blessings. :)

Answer 1

I'm aware that, certainly at some point, followers of Jesus referred to their beliefs as 'the way'. What I'm not sure of is precisely when this was.

A lot of confusion results because of the idea that the first 'Christians' were Jews. Yes, the first *few* followers of Jesus were Jews, but they were NOT 'Christians' in the way that we define that word today. Jesus preached only to Jews, and he had a tiny, tiny following.

So yes, they were a tiny, fringe sect IN Judaism. But after Jesus died, the belief set changed because of those that claimed Jesus was the messiah EVEN THOUGH he had died BEFORE fulfilling the prophecies.

As soon as he died, having failed to fulfill them, it was clear that Jesus was yet one more false messiah - there were many.

Those that still believed in him after he died, were really the first 'Christians'. Jesus himself taught only basic Judaism, but from this time on, his followers were walking away from the Jewish faith, and embracing ideas COUNTER to Judaism.

And very swiftly, Christianity became an entirely non Jewish faith.  And then of course we have Paul, the original PR spin doctor!

Now, had Paul not taken his ideas to the Gentiles and Pagans, it's probable that the followers of Jesus would have drifted back into mainstream Judaism. After all, there were many other fringe sects - and this was perfectly natural and accepted by the other Jews.

But Paul insisted that the Torah was now 'invalid' and THIS was something no Jew could ever, ever accept. Hence Paul had to preach outside Judaism.

There was no reason for either Pagans or Gentiles to know Torah or, more crucially, to know the Jewish writings on 'maschiach' (messiah) so it was easy for Paul to convince them that Jesus was the messiah!

EDIT

I just want to address another part of your question. In fact, the very early Christians TOTALLY wanted to separate themselves FROM Judaism.

They declared themselves 'the new israel' and did not wish to be associated with what they were already defining as the 'old' religion of the Jews.

So no, it was not the case that Christian identity back then evolved because the Jews and Romans were 'mocking' them. Paul offered Christianity as being 'easier' than Judaism. He claimed that the death of Jesus 'freed' people from the laws of Judaism.

This was entirely invalid, of course, because those he preached to were not Jewish and thus the Jewish laws had NEVER applied to them! How can you be 'freed' from something that you were never obligated to do to begin with???!

This is discussed at length in the following excellent book:

Rome & Jerusalem by Martin Goodman

Answer 2

We don't know when the actual term came about, but it shows up in Roman historical writings.

Jesus was a Jew.And he never meant to start a new religion - he only meant to reform Judaism a little bit.

The FIRST Christians were indeed a small Jewish cult. They did everything observant Jews did. PAPERBACK says they were very few - well , I guess it's how much you take as 'few'. The 12 apostles weren't his only followers, you know? Compared to other men claiming to be tthe Messiah walking around Judaea during that time, he had much more followers than the others. Anyway, that's off topic.

But then the apostle Paul (formerly Saul of Tarsus) went on his great missionary journeys , converting the Mediterranean to Christianity/ or the Jewish cult Christianity that it was back then.

Now, some people were not enthusiastic about conversion, since they would need to undergo a complete Jewish conversion - which would include circumcision for men , and nobody wanted to go through that.

So Paul decided that Gentiles (non-Jews) should not be obliged to keep Torah . Paul decided that Jesus was for everyone , not for Jews. And so Jewish customs were ablolished , things like dietary laws , etc.

That was when Christianity became more what it is today.

When James dispatches Paul and others on missionary expiditions , he desires them to convert people to Jesus's form of Judaism.the "Nation of Israel' as Jesus , james , and their contempraries conceived it.

But Paul somewhat fails the mission entrusted to him and instead converts gentiles to his own 'pagan' cult of Christianity. (I say pagan because the converts were practicing paganism before , but to correct Paperback , pagan themes were incorporated in Christianity rather by Emperor Constantine , than by Paul , although he sort of helped too :-)

Apostles before him worshipped God , in the strict Judaic sense. Paul , on the other hand , advocated the worship of Jesus as God.Jesus himself would have regarded it blasphemous.

Now , when James and the others find out what Paul has been up to , this is interesting , they , in fact , send missionries after Paul to *undo* his teachings. Interesting , huh?Paul screwed it all up for the rest of humanity. :-(

But PAPERBACK, although Paul advocated the worship of Jesus as God and that sort of violated Torah, he only preached that Jesus was for everyone and Torah was not binding *on the gentiles*. The Jews still had to observe Torah, he never defied that ; except for worshipping Jesus as God. As PAPERBACK rightly points out , the Laws were never binding on the gentiles to begin with, but Paul didn't require them to convert to Jesus' form of Judaism.He made a new religion then. Not just one for Jews as it was before, but one for gentiles.

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Cheri - Well, that's what Christians (who study the Bible, not fundies) always say. And that's what it looks like from the point of view of the NT too. Of course the Jews had no record of him, they didn't need to ,he wasn't their messiah. I think. But wouldn't that be much of a coincidence if Jesus was one like all the other false messiahs, but he was the only lucky one to have 'Paul doing his PR' as Paperback puts it? Why didn' t the other messiahs have people doing their PR? Lol. Coincidence? I know this doesn't explain anything, but I think he had more followers than everybody else.

PAPEBACK: By 'the early Christians' that wanted to separate themselves from Judaism, do you mean those before Paul's Jesus PR travels , or after?

Answer 3

I am not Jewish but I do know that Judaism is based on Moses leading the lost tribe and pre Jesus Christ so this would fit with their religion.

Answer 4

"God-centric worship, rather than feeling that they had to use the symbols and rituals of their leaders to reach God"

That statement is a reflection of the classic Christian idea that Judaism was having serious issues.  Becoming too focused on law, becoming too priestly...  That's not noted by Jews of the times.

Whether they picked a name because they were mocked or not, is irrelevant.  Following Jesus as anything more than a mere human teacher, particularly after he died, means they weren't practicing Judaism.  It doesn't matter what they called it - even if they called it a branch of Judaism.  It wasn't officially accepted by Judaism as a part of Judaism at any point in time.  What's striking in this comment is that feeling that "the Romans made us do it, did it to us" & "the Jews rejected us".  It rings just like classic Christian (attack) ideas, but now with attempts at new words to justify them.  

Jews object to these persononas because they aren't reflective of history (Roman or Jewish), aren't recorded by Judaism (religiously), have political motivation of the new religion for it's survival that can explain their inclusion in NT, and have caused a lot of harm to Jews.

I'm not sure the writer realizes what they are repeating.  It's subtlely done.

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Unprejudice

My understanding is that Jezus had one of the smaller followings.  There were a few people calling to be messiah that meant more critieria already.  Jezus didn't even register enough for Jews to record his existence.  Maybe someone can clarify for me?

Actually I'd think Paul took him on because he was least well known.  The others, it would have been harder to do a sell job on because people would have known more & had more opinion.  Also those would have by meeting the Jewish criteria a little better, would have been harder to separate from Judaism & sell to Gentiles -- maybe even got a bigger protest from Jews themselves who believed them to be part of Judaism as Jewish teachers.  Unless there's evidence of his having a larger following (& the evidence is to the contrary), I don't think the logic works to say he must have been bigger because he was the one picked.  That's similar to the "Christianity must be right because more people believe it".

Answer 5

Not quite.

Jesus is recorded as preaching solely to the Jews. His folloiwers did the same, and early Christianity was definitely a part of Judaism, albeit one in opposition to the mainstream of the time. So that part of your friend's statement is true.

However, it was Paul who started preaching mainly to non-Jews, and thanks to him that the sect became predominately a non-Jewish religion. In the early days there were quite a lot of debates between those who thought the new non-Jewish Christians should be subject to the Torah and the Jewish laws, and those who didn't. As we know, the second group won out.