A "what if" question of Joe Louis?

Question

Joe Louis was 27-0 when he lost to Max Schmeling. He was 61-1 when he lost to Ezzard Charles.

Had he NOT fought Schmeling he would have been 61-0 going in against Charles with 25 title defenses, and possibly would have won the title sooner, giving him even more defenses. Had he won, same story, except 62-0 instead.

With that ONE fight removed or reversed in the land of make believe, how would people veiw Rocky Marciano and or his record. And again, if that fight were removed or reversed, would Ali still be considered "The Greatest"?

You can give your opinion on this, what popular opinion would probably be, or yours and popular. Have fun with it.

Answer 1

The record is just that a record.  Rocky was the only heavyweight to retire undefeated & he's not the greatest of all-time.  It might have made people think differently about his legacy.  However the only argument could be is who was greater Ali or Louis & they are 1 & 2 in the all-time rankings right now.  If someone thought Louis was greater than Ali they would have a legitimate argument.  I think Ali is the greatest because of his opposition & both of these fighters were great because when faced with a loss or advercity they came back & did things no one thought they could.

Answer 2

Joe Louis was 165 years old when Rocky Marciano beat him though so, he's still the best ever.

Answer 3

This is an excellent what if question regarding The Brown Bomber, Joe Louis.  Joe was the heavy favorite when he fought Schmeling the first time and may have been overconfident.  Schmeling fought a smart and tactical fight stunning Louis by 12th round ko.  After beating Jersey Joe Walcott by 11th round kayo in 48 and retiring in 49 his record stood at 59-1-0 (51)  Of course what if he would have beaten Schmeling and been 60-0 with being champion almost 12 years and 25 title defenses.  Joe Louis makes a very strong argument with his record as it is already but had he not had to return to the ring in 50-51, most people would have probably ranked him of both Ali and Marciano in my opinion.  As much respect as I have for both Ali and Marciano and their brilliant accomplishments in the ring, I would have rated Louis as the greatest of all time and probably a majority of the boxing public too.  Good question sir!

4 thumbs down for my opinion?  Trolls must be on the loose.

Answer 4

The loss to Schmeling made Louis a better fighter.

He had some tactical flaws that Schmeling saw and took advantage of.

Louis is still considered the best heavyweight regardless records.

The difference between Marciano and most boxers is he had the sense to get out before his talents began to desert him.

Answer 5

there's no doubt Louis is a great fighter.

BUT "WHAT IF"?...

the rematch with Schmeling is, unbeknownst to Louis, is a giveaway?

Max died just 2 years ago, and before that there were conspiracy theories that he deliberately gave that fight away. He secretly despised the Fuhrer for making him a poster boy for the Aryan supreme race. So he made it a point to himself (maybe just by himself; to make sure he embarasses Hitler).

In fairness to Louis, he wouldn't be aware of such plan so he just went on to avenge his loss. True or not, Max is gonna get beaten anyway coz the first fight he just got lucky.

Now, if you watch the replay on the second fight, Max just crumpled into a corner and he let his ribs and kidney pounded to death.

ever wonder that when the war ended, max always visited the US and became a good businessman and even sent checks to poor Joe until he died? they became good friends.

Answer 6

Louis in my book is #1 based on all his credentials, boxing ability, movement, and power.  He was one of the best finishers when he had a fighter hurt.  If Ali had more punching power I would rate him over Louis.  

The first fight with Schmeling I know Louis fought the last 6 rounds when his legs were gone.  He didn't train properly for that fight.  In the later years in the fight against Charles and Marciano no amount of training would have brought his legs back, he was too old.

The first fight against Schmeling taught Louis a lesson about training properly for fights and I think his record speaks for itself.

Answer 7

Only the liberal media and Ali himself consider him 'The greatest'. real boxing fans still regard louis as the greatest - The Champ!

Answer 8

Joe Louis' history in the ring and out are either remembered or was a significant moment in boxing history and civil rights period.  He had to fight Schmelling again. That loss was a great blow to his self esteem and his race. His fight with Charles was closer then some people think and he should be proud of his losses. Not by Journeyman but great fighters in boxing history!

Answer 9

No matter who U are there will come a time when your ability leaves U. Marciano never lost because he put everything he had into the sport.He recognized that if what got him to his position at the Top would waiver in anyway whatsoever,he wouldn't be true to himself. HE sacrificed everything for boxing and even showed it respect when he retired.  To ROCKY haters: At least admit he's the luckiest bum fighter of all time Nuthin' but undefeated luck! Right,Jersey Joe?

Answer 10

"Louis had just barely turned 37 when Rocky knocked him plum out of the ring. Louis later stated that he might not have ever been able to beat Marciano. I hate it when jerks try to downplay marciano's accomplishments."

I want to add to that, because I dont think anyone is really trying to trivialize Marciano, rather put him in perspective.

As is now common knowledge, Joe Louis was unfairly hounded to the end of his life by the IRS. Louis was not fighting Marciano for the passion of the sport, he was fighting to pay off a mounting debt. Unlike Hopkins, who stayed active well into his forties, Joe Louis had not fought in years and had only fought journeyman fighters previous to fighting Marciano. He was well past his prime, and nowhere NEAR the fighter that he was when he was in his prime. His health was gone (anyone that has ever youtubed the fight can see the spare tire Louis has around his waist).

The point is this. Could Marciano have beaten a prime Joe Louis? Very possibly so. I dont doubt it. Marciano had will very rarely seen in people. But his achievement in fighting Joe Louis is tainted by the fact that he was not facing a prime champion at his best...but rather an older version who was developing a drinking problem (and later a drug addiction).

Its hardly fair to Joe Louis, not Marciano, to use that fight as a measure to his character.  Honestly had it been his choice, he probably would have never been in the fight to begin with.

ADDITIONAL NOTES: You are right Albert, right is right. So lets set the records COMPLETELY straight. In BOTH bouts with Jersey Joe Walcott, Louis got knocked down twice in each fight. One Louis scraped a decision..the other he won a knockout. This was in 1947 and 1948, after a three year layoff from 1942 to 1945 when Louis had no fights at all serving with the war...already a ten year difference and layoff of the man that fought Max Schmelling in 1938. ON MARCH FIRST, 1949...Louis announced his retirement. He said his performances against Walcott and Billy Conn said he was done.

When the IRS would no longer yield on the mones he owed them...he fought Ezzard Charles on the first of what you could CALL a comeback trail...others would call trying to stay out of jail (Charles was the only thing comparable to a heavyweight champion on this supposed "comeback trail") and lost. In all of the consequential fights....the IRS was there to collect Joe's purse completely before he could touch it. Everyone else you mentioned is nowhere near prepairing a fighter for a champion. Mind you this is after TWO layoffs, one being three years long...working odd jobs in entertainment to make ends meet with the IRS and then finally having his "comeback" when he had no other way to make income.

Hardly what anyone would call a game fighting champion Albert, no matter how you cut it. Im not making excuses Albert, this is all history. He was a shell of what he was when they fought...the ONLY thing he carried to that ring that was still the same was his name. He was an 8-5 favorite BECAUSE of his name, not who he fought.  Again I appreciate your sentiment towards boxing lore...but there is alot of understory that you are intentionally not including in your version BECAUSE it would substantiate that Louis didnt even want to be in the ring.

If you are really a Louis fan, give him his due and tell the whole story, not the one that makes Marciano look THAT much better for beating him.

Answer 11

Dayum good question:

First, I think that Louis, not Ali would be the measure of greatness by which boxers are measured... i.e. the oft posted question on here Ali vs Tyson would be Louis vs Tyson and so on.

Second, I do not think Louis would have walked away from the sport with a perfect record simply because as long as he was winning, he always thought he had one more fight, and he would have fought one too many.   That said, I do not think that Rocky Marciano's legacy would be in jeopardy.

Popular opinion would change only slightly because I think had he run up a 62-0 record I think the media would have focused a bit more on his personal life bringing to light his devout faith and the impact he had in bringing black athletes to the fore in the landscape of American sports.

My opinion of him could not be much higher than it already is, but I think a lot more people boxing fans and non-boxing fans alike would be more aware of his life and legacy.