Abortion debaters.... have you ever come across THIS mindset?

Question

It seems like there are LOTS of people who have the mindset that abortions lower the # of people on welfare, or doing drugs, or committing crimes.

Think about what you are REALLY, truly saying.

That abortions eliminate people who would otherwise be "unfit" for our society.

I don't think it is a coincidence that the majority of abortion clinics are in low income neighborhoods. Did you know that the founder of Planned Parenthood was a racist woman who wanted to eliminate certain races and those with mental and physical handicaps? Well, she would be pleased to know her work is still going strong!

Nothing makes me angrier in an abortion debate than this horrible, offensive excuse. It is truly pathetic and reminds me a bit too much of Hitler.

Has anyone else come across this? Or, maybe some of you actually think this way- I would love to hear what you have to say.

Answer 1

Yes, I heard that a while back. What amazed me was the almost deafening silence from members of the Religious Right, who normally are quite vocal in their opposition to abortion. It made me wonder what their motives about opposing abortion really are.

Answer 2

I understand the reasoning... It does make sense that people who are living in poverty are more likely to have children who will end up in poverty, but that's no reason to allow abortions. I think the problem needs to be solved further up - instead of funding for abortions, pass out condoms and birth control. Educate them that if they have unprotected s*x, they will get pregnant. Better yet, educate and create programs so these people have something else to do besides have s*x. Once you're pregnant, it's not about choice. You made your choice when took your pants off. There's always adoption - there are so many people who are prepared to give a child a good life and can't conceive. Why do we need to kill these children who have options?

Answer 3

a few issues with your logic - first, regardless of economic level, I fail to see a correlation between an abortion and predicting its future.  second, you're the first one I've heard relate abotions with those deemed 'unfit for our society.'  Where the he!! does that idea come from?  Third, wealthy folks travel to exotic places for their abortions and always have.  They don't waddle down rodeo drive to the first clinic they come to and you'd probably be complaining if the poor DIDN'T have ready access to them.  fourth - back in the day, we lacked the technology that we have today as far as determining the health of the baby - and I'm not addressing it's mental abilities while in the womb - actually, I don't think we have that now in 2008.  Therefore, please connect the dots for me - specifically, how did the founder plan to eliminate certain races and those with handicaps through abortions - back in the day?  It sounds more like your interpretation of the facts.  You know, if we look hard enough, we'll find what we're looking for - even if it's not there.

Answer 4

Wow were killing people off because they will be born poor! Yay! Next will kill of the filthy rich to make ourselves look better. *does fake cheesy smile, then gags.* -end of sarcasim-

I agree with you it is a bit n**i and Hitlerish (more then a bit actually). I actually haven't come across this agruement though. It sounds a little stupid if you ask me.

Answer 5

i dont care what the reason or excuse is for having an abortion.  I think it's terrible, when there are so many childless couples who WANT a baby.  Would it be so horrible for a woman to face reality for ONLY nine months, carry the baby, and then give it up for adoption?  Most people who make the mistake of getting pregnant when they aren't ready have to live up to it FOREVER.. would it really be SO hard just to give birth to the baby, and then make some infertile couple's lives worth living by giving them your child?  COME ON people.

Answer 6

You are very wrong in some aspects.  Rich white women have been able to afford to have abortions at will, safely and quickly yet the poor women, especially minorities must have unwanted children or risk death in a back alley.

The leading class have few children and the thing that hurts minorities is their lack of access to birth control.  Too many children keep people at a financial deficit and the leading class have small families.

You have really twisted the story by assuming that minorities aren't wanted.  There are many white women who have abortions discretely because they have the money to pay for it.  To not help all people have equal access to birth control and equal opportunities out of difficult situations is unfair.  Planned Parenthood was NOT founded by a racist but people who saw unequal advantages the leading races had over the minorities.

Answer 7

im totally against abortion and my son is living proof. i was raised against it, but when i got pregnant with my son, i didnt want him. i wanted to get an abortion, but i didnt cuz i couldnt bring myself to actually do it. i thought about adoption, but after i had him he was soooo perfect. he was the perfect baby and now the most inquisitive 3 year old. i swear he is going to be a famous inventor and my husband (his step father) KNOWS he is going to be a wrestling champ. so even though there is a debate about it, no matter what anyone says i think it is wrong no matter what way it is done or how it is viewed. people say its a womans choice, well what about the babies choice. it didnt choose to be spawned. but as u say in your argument, the founder of planned parenthood is an idiot!! if that is her biggest concern then life must have been a hard road for her

Answer 8

I absolutely do NOT understand how anyone can say abortion is about controlling women. That's a totally contrived thought developed by hateful people within the Feminist movement.

Abortion is about killing children. Period. I am truly sorry, but a pregnant woman is no longer allowed to think about it as "her body." She shares that body with an infant human person, and the lack of respect for the dignity of these humans is disgusting.

Just as a man cannot think only of himself in regards to his family, it's not "his life" any more, a woman cannot, in this situation, think of it as only her life being effected. The selfishness and arrogance of our society is horrifying some days. We exist in communities with and through each other, not just as individuals floating through life.

Answer 9

I'm a pro-choice. and what's the difference between force other people to give birth then they clearly don't wants to, and force other people to become Christian? after all not all religion believes that the fetus is a human being, so why do they have to give up what ever they believe in and follow what ever you think is right? and what are you going to do next? jail all those who are not Christan? so no one can disobey you again?

Answer 10

This mindset???  Hey - stop reading my mind!!

I don't think it is racist, but it is "people on welfare, or doing drugs, or committing crimes" that have the most children and the most problems with children and the most kids that grow up to be habitual prisoners....

Yeah to abortion for people on welfare, or doing drugs, or committing crimes - that is NOT racist... that is COMMON SENSE!!!

Better yet - sterilize people on welfare, or doing drugs, or committing crimes!!!!

PS>  my view may be a tad more radical than many others' here, but looking at the thumbs up/down on the rest of the answers... I'd say your theory should be aborted!!!  :)

Answer 11

Basically, abortion is wrong.  Everyone should have a chance to live.  And if you're having s*x, you need to take responsibility for your actions.  There are other cases where it would seem legit, but it should never come to that.

Answer 12

One of the more famous people who talked about abortions lowering crime rate was Bill Bennett, Reagan's Secretary of Education and George Bush's drug czar, who said:

"But I do know that it's true that if you wanted to reduce crime, you could ... abort every black baby in this country, and your crime rate would go down."

Might I recommend you do some research about Margaret Sanger, and discover that your statement is not true.  

You could start here:

http://www.tompaine.com/articles/2005/06...

However, even if Margaret Sanger was racist—which the evidence doesn't support—Planned Parenthood is clearly no longer under her leadership, and hasn't been for 40 years. Attempting to discredit this valuable social service organization by discrediting its founder is pretty weak.

Please cite your source that says the majority of abortion providers are in poor neighborhoods.  They aren't in my city.

Answer 13

No I have not run accross that "excuse" as you call it. I think the reason I have not run accross it is because those who feel abortion is their right do not need to make arguments or excuses as they are not the ones against it. I speak for many in simply saying it is my right to choose what I do and I will not give that right away to anyone else under any circumstances.

Answer 14

I approve of abortion only in cases of rape or incest, or in a situation in which the newborn would be in immediate physical danger.

Answer 15

When we lived in a major city there was at least one article in the paper a week about a small child tossed off a building, thrown down an elevator shaft, stomped, beaten or starved to death, by a parent or step parent on drugs. What, exactly does that remind you of?

I don't really know of any abortion clinics in low income areas. But if they are there, it would be because that is where  unwanted pregnancies can be found in women who can't afford anything else.   A middle-class woman doesn't have to go to an abortion clinic. Her Gyno will take care of her in a nice clean hospital.

Answer 16

Typical anti-choice zealot rant and rave.

No pro-choice person uses this 'excuse', which is actually the shorthand version of controversial scientific studies dating back to the 1930s.

It's easy enough to look up on Wikipedia, or elsewhere if your brain can take the stretching, although maybe all that ability has gone into your mouth.

Cheers :-)

Answer 17

Yes, I have heard that twisted "logic" to support abortion.  My wife and I have battled for the mothers and their unborn children for 20 years, so we've heard every convoluted reasoning shown by the pro-abortion people who posted here, and then some.

This line of reason was, indeed, most championed by Margaret Sanger.  Sanger came from a rich family.  As many who are rich will do, she volunteered to help those less fortunate.  When she would go with an MD into the home of a "lower class" family, she saw that some had numerous children.  She reasoned, wrongly, that they would be better off if they had not had a lot of children.  Further, she believed that people like herself, meaning rich, could not truly enjoy their wealth, as long as there were such a number of poor whites & minorities.  She believed that it would detract from enjoyment of her wealth.

From these seeds, came her racist, eugenics plan, which she embedded into Planned Parenthood's policy making decisions and standards as the "***** Project", a program that is still in effect with P.P. today.

During her time in Europe, she continued to move her eugenics beliefs along, especially during her affair with Havelock Ellis (while she was stilled married to her husband, whom she had left in the states).

Her views were admired by none other than Adolph Hitler, himself.  He, and others high up in his n**i regime, adopted several aspects of her agenda, to include forced abortions on all but Arian people  Contrary to one claim on this thread, Hitler was decidedly "pro-choice".

Here are Margaret Sanger's own words from 1939:  "We should hire three or four colored ministers, preferably with social-service backgrounds, and with engaging personalities. The most successful educational approach to the ***** is through a religious appeal. We don't want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the ***** population. and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members." - Margaret Sanger's December 19, 1939 letter to Dr. Clarence Gamble, 255 Adams Street, Milton, Massachusetts. Original source: Sophia Smith Collection, Smith College, North Hampton, Massachusetts. Also described in Linda Gordon's Woman's Body, Woman's Right: A Social History of Birth Control in America. New York: Grossman Publishers, 1976.

Among the hierarchy of Planned Parenthood, is Alexander C. Sanger, Margaret's grandson.  Alex Sanger is a former president of Planned Parenthood.and is currently Chair of the International Planned Parenthood Council.  So, Margaret's influence is still, indeed, felt throughout the whole of the organization.

Special Notice:  Apparently, the Yahoo filter doesn't like the term used for black people back in Margaret's time.  They have replaced that word with the " * " symbol you see above.  If you still don't understand,  the word is spelled N-e-g-r-o.

Answer 18

I have never heard of that mindset. Sure you did not make it up for rhetorical purposes?

Answer 19

Perhaps the "Working Middle Class" who can pay for their own abortions, but choose birth control the majority of the time would love to see the population of the lower income people on welfare drop as they are tired of seeing their tax dollars wasted away raising other people's spawn.  How about mandatory sterilization for people who have more than 2 kids and are on welfare?  There was an ideal of "Zero Population growth" in the early '70's to help keep the earth from overcrowding.  PREVENTION IS THE KEY.

Answer 20

NOT correct or factual on the original reason behind Planned Parenthood. The original intent was to help women and families who were in DIRE POVERTY "plan" their families...so that they didn't have to have a child every year only to have it suffer and die within the year, in MOST cases (yes, MOST). Yes, the founder, Margaret Sanger, DID give lectures to (i.e. ask for money and support from) Eugenics groups of the day, but I think that if you did your research, you would find that that attitude was VERY prevalent during that time, disgustingly so. Many, many states actually had laws that were passed during that time to FORCE mentally handicapped people to be sterilized. It was a different time. And, unfortunately, most people were racist back then, too, though there is no real evidence that SHE was. Either way, that doesn't mean that her real intent was to "cleanse" the country of undesirables, I've read her biography, and she truly wanted to end the suffering of extremely poor families and children by helping families prevent having children they could not support.

As for that argument...I think it's disgusting. What I DO understand, is being concerned about children being brought into the world unwanted, and what that would mean for them. I'm not saying "abused people are better off aborted," I'm saying that anyone who stops to think about whether or not they are ready for children, and what kind of life they could provide for a completely dependent person, is doing the right thing, IMO.

Answer 21

abortion isnt about life or death.. it is about a man controlling a womans decision for what she can and cannot do with her own body,...

Its about control people... try that mindset....

Answer 22

who gets abortions? people who can't take care of kids, such as teenagers. what do you think happens nine times out of ten to teen mothers? they don't go to harvard i can tell you that. they quite often do end up on welfare. then you have all these girls and kids living in poverty and misery. what a great thing that is huh?

Answer 23

I've noticed that. It's an unfortunate and offensive excuse.

Answer 24

Bottom line is abortion is wrong.   I can't believe some people see it any other way.  It's not too hard to figure out what's right and what's wrong in life-this topic the writing is one the wall.

Answer 25

Women who have an abortion often cite poverty as a major influence on their decision.  Afro-Americans (and other minority groups) are more likely to be poor than whites.

Answer 26

If we're going to get into that mindset, I say let's abort every baby.  Sure, humanity would be extinct in about 90 years or a little more but we'd be sure to end all suffering.  Let's face it, pretty much everybody will suffer at some point in their lives from something.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who realized the fallacy of that argument.  Who can predict who's going to become a killer or on welfare?  I never thought about this before, but it seems as if pro-choice people are against the poor in a way.  I don't think they mean to be, but that's really what they're saying.

As someone who has had 2 relatives with disabilities they've had from birth (one died about 10 years ago at the age of 35) it greatly offends me when people say those with disabilities are less worthy of life than the rest of us.  I've mentioned this before.

Answer 27

This mindset, as you call it, is the result of a scientific paper written in 2001 that attempts to show a correlation between falling crime rates and the legalization of abortion.  The paper is still considered controversial, but many believe it makes some good points.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Impact_...

Also, Hitler made abortion illegal for good Aryan women, so he was definitely anti-choice.

"On May 26, 1933, two pieces of penal legislation . . . prohibit[ed] the availability of abortion facilities and services, . . . resulting in a 65 percent increase in yearly convictions between 1932 and 1938, when their number reached almost 7,000. From 1935 on, doctors and midwives were obliged to notify the regional State Health Office of every miscarriage. Women's names and addresses were then handed over to the police, who investigated the cases suspected of actually being abortions. In 1936 Heinrich Himmler, head of all police forces and the SS, established the Reich's Central Agency for the Struggle Against Homosexuality and Abortion, and in 1943, after three years of preparation by the Ministries of the Interior and of Justice, the law entitled Protection of Marriage, Family, Motherhood called for the death penalty in 'extreme cases'."

Answer 28

Yeah I've come across that mindset.    My reply is to tell them to F off.     Seriously not worth debating imbeciles.

I've found though that if you stick to a purely science and medical science based arguement they lose every time.

Answer 29

You are correct and factual in regards to the original reason for planned parenthood.

Answer 30

We all know that Margaret Sanger was a eugenicist, but we certainly don't condone that.

Answer 31

I've argued about abortion so many times here that I will just give you my knee-jerk argument:

"Close your legs, and use protection if you don't want kids!"

I'm against abortion until it becomes a "parents" choice over a "womans" choice.