According to Watchtower teaching...?

Question

Who does this verse refer to?

"Although he was a Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered." (Hebrews 5:8, NWT)

a).Jesus, the MAN?

b).The pre-existent Word of John 1:1?

c).Both?

Didn't the Word - as Jehovah's first-created being - ALREADY know about obedience?

Your thoughts, please?

Answer 1

Before coming to the earth, Jesus was a model of obedience in heaven. However, it was here on earth that he “learned obedience.” How? “From the things he suffered.”

Previously, he had observed suffering but had never experienced it in person. When on earth, especially from his baptism in the Jordan to his death at Golgotha, he underwent many trying situations. We do not know all the details of how Jesus was “made perfect” in this regard, but we do know that the process took time.—Hebrews 5:8, 9.

Under Jehovah’s direction, Joseph and Mary protected Jesus from harm when he was a child. (Matthew 2:7-23) Eventually, though, God removed supernatural protection from Jesus. Jesus’ mental and physical suffering became so great that the Bible says that he “offered up supplications and also petitions . . . with strong outcries and tears.” (Hebrews 5:7) When did this happen?

16 In particular, it occurred during the final hours of Jesus’ earthly life when Satan made an all-out attempt to break His integrity.

Jesus was evidently so tortured by thoughts of how his death as a supposed evildoer might reflect badly on his Father’s reputation that as “he continued praying [in the garden of Gethsemane] his sweat became as drops of blood falling to the ground.”

A few hours later, his manner of death on a torture stake was so painful that Jesus uttered “strong outcries [with] tears.” (Luke 22:42-44; Mark 15:34) He thus “learned obedience from the things he suffered” and thereby made his Father’s heart rejoice.

Now in heaven, Jesus feels our pain as we often struggle to be obedient.—Proverbs 27:11; Hebrews 2:18; 4:15.

respectfully,

Simone

Answer 2

Well first you have yo deal with the Fact that the "NWT" translation is not true to the original manuscripts according to the most reliable scholars secular or theological, past and present.

Second in Col. 3:10 I believe Jesus is described as unique, one in essence with the father God. This answers the question of knowledge.

Answer 3

In the Watchtower Society Insight book, under 'Obedience', the last paragraph says of Jesus: "Supreme among these is the example of God's own Son, who 'humbled himself and became obedient as far as death...' (Phil 2:8 Heb 5:8) By his obedient course he was justified, proved righteous on his own merit, and hence could provide a perfect sacrifice that would redeem mankind from sin and death." It seems as if they apply this verse to Jesus in his humanity. Nobody could do otherwise, given that verse 7 identifies Jesus the man during his earthly life as this one. I'm not aware of the Witnesses ever saying it applies to the Word of God. (Please note and be warned of the way the Watchtower insinuates that because Jesus was proved righteous on his own merit, obedient humans who follow his example can do likewise. This is where Witnesses fall into the trap of trying to earn salvation by obedience.)

Perhaps the key word in verse 8 is 'suffered' because the Word of God could not experience human suffering whilst part of the triune Godhead in heaven. Only in his incarnation could he experience suffering as his human nature was subjected to temptations to disobey his Father. It was the act of suffering that brought home just what obedience means when push comes to shove. It's perfectly possible to agree and to assent to everything God requires without ever having that agreement tested. Suffering is the testing-ground of obedience. This was where Adam failed and Jesus resisted and so prevailed. His humanity was thus completed = made perfect (vs 9). Having been tested and proved perfect, his sacrifice then availed and he became the source of eternal salvation (9:12).

There can be no learning about obedience in the triune God-head, the way we have to learn obedience, because God could only disobey himself, which is impossible for God to do! (If he could, he would not be God!) The divine nature of Christ the man could not learn obedience for if he had anything to learn, he would not be God, but his human nature had to. (Jesus chose not to know certain things, his glory veiled in flesh, which is not the same thing as not knowing due to needing to learn.) However, if Jesus had previously existed as a created angel, he would certainly have already learned obedience in heaven, carrying out God’s commands there, as per the Witness teaching, which is un-Christian.

Answer 4

it's not just watchtower teachings but it is based on the bible itself, i agree with simone

Answer 5

Yes Jesus knew about obedience in heaven as the first angelic creature created.  He had tremendous power as well.

It is one thing to observe human frailty, it is quite another to participate!

By becoming human, he learned how hard life is for us without power.  So it is not without purpose the Bible records at Philippians 2:6-10:

"Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. 7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men. 8 More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake. 9 For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground,"

Answer 6

This verse is speaking of Jesus. He is also called the word, since he was Gods spokesman.

He did know about obedience before coming to the earth because while he saw many in heaven including Satan rebel he remained faithful and did not follow. As far as suffering though he had only observed suffering, never experiencing it in person. When he came to the earth though, he underwent many trying situations. So after suffering and still remaining faithful then it could be said that he learned obedience from the things he suffered.

Answer 7

1) Yes, Jesus subsumed himself to become Human and suffer all we can suffer to make His sacrifice even more worthy.  If He lived and died as G-d, there is no redemption, and the power of His resurrection is diminished, as it was meat to serve as the 1st of all  (on the Judgment Day we shall all arise again).

2) G-d in his glory is ever present and has always been so (I am who am).  Jesus and the Holy Spirit have coexisted with G-d the Father as the Trinity since Time immemorial.

3) yes, Fully G-d and Fully Human, during his time on Earth.