Aggressive behavior problem?

Question

okay so my vet told me to work my underweight thoroughbred so he could get some muscle on him

so i'm trying to teach him how to lunge sincei don't have a round pen

now my tb is really good in a round pen..his ear is always on you when i stop and he turns in and when i step back he follows

he walks trots and canters i can even get an extended canter out of him in a BIG round pen and if i put up small jumps he'll hop over those too!

well on saturady i lunged him and he walked and trotted PERFECTLY he was So good.. that i thought about trying the canter so i cued him and he went NUTS he bucked and pinned his ears back. he just did NOT want to canter.. so i worked him a little longer in a fast trot.. then we walked around the yard for a cool down.. he can only be worked for about 20 minutes becuase of his bad shape

anyways today i go out to lunge him he walks great... keep walking and warming up for about 10 minutes then i ask for the trot and he

Answer 1

My first suggestion is to lounge him in a bridle (snaffle bit)with a lunge line threaded up through the bit, over behind his ears and clipped to the other side of the headstall. This will give you a ton more control than a halter, cavason or threading the line through the bit to attach to a saddle or surcingle. Also, if you are not carrying a whip, invest in one as soon as you can.

Practice with it until you can crack it, and use this skill when he becomes aggressive. Keep the whip between you and the horse and use it and your arms to make yourself "bigger" when he charges at you. When I worked with a horse like this I also ended up hollering at him, but he was highly sensitive to tone and voice cues, so it worked for him.

If you can handle it, work him close on the line, asking him to step around and away from you (like leg yeilding on the ground) using the whip as back up to teach him to respect your space at the slower paces before you try a canter.

When you ask for the canter and he acts up, I'd suggest scaring him as much as you can- make him think that bucking and running off are absolutely the worst things to do. I rode a gelding who bucked and bit and tried to walk all over you, but my trainer taught me to bridge my reins and reach back and swat him with my crop so he would catch himself in the mouth and I sometimes had to do that four or five times in a row, but soon I could just show him I carried a crop and he would behave himself wonderfully.

Save that whip crack for the canter- he acts up and you get after him! Crack the whip and pop on the lunge line and holler at him- it may be scary, but a horse that spooks and runs away from you on a lunge line is a lot easier to handle than a horse running towards you. Just be prepared for what you're getting yourself into- I don't want you to get hurt! Don't wrap the line around your hands, and you may even want to wear gloves if you're worried about your hands.

My other suggestion is to not only do this once, but never, ever let him get away with it like you have- despite vet orders I would keep after him if he's still acting up, because you need to show him that you aren't scared of him and that his behavior is not going to be tollerated. When he acts up, disrupt the behavior to break it up and then have him continue on- don't let him get the idea that acting up gets him out of working.

Best of luck and stay safe!

Answer 2

Every ounce of my many years of experience goes into this answer.  You are not able to deal with this yourself, and you could get hurt trying.  You need an experienced trainer to deal with this, and you need to be there learning how to handle this horse while the trainer works with him.

Answer 3

First there is NO EXCUSE for a horse to charge a human.  NONE!  It must never be excused.  It gets disciplined REGARDLESS of the cause.  If you are not experienced enough to handle it and discipline the horse then you need to have someone else handle it and you need to leave the horse completely alone....FOREVER(or at least until you learn how to discipline it)!  This horse has learned that he can intimidate you and until you learn how to discipline it you are in danger of being killed.  In fact when a horse charges you it is intending to do just that if it gets a hold of you.

Quite honestly I would use a whip on this horse.  Actually I would have already used it and I would be ready with a club if it happened again.  The third time would get a bullet to the brain.

Answer 4

15 - 20 minutes a day is a good amount to get in good physical shape.  My mare has locking patella problems to muscle condition plays a bit part - lunging her 20 minutes a day keeps her in good shape.

You are right, he's got the better of you and now knows you are afraid.  In the horse world each member of the herd has a social status - he may be submissive in the pasture with others, but in your herd of two he seems to have established himself as the leader.

Also in the horse world, he who moves his feet first loses.  Two horses squaring off - or even one horse laying it's ears back at another - you will see the one who turns away or moves even a hoof away becomes the loser.  

I'm not telling you to stand there in danger of him kicking you - if you think he'll kick, you need to keep him in control and avoid allowing him to kick you.  Also when he does something like this that's not right, he must learn there will be consequences.

Consequences for horses are not beatings - they don't touch each other.  They have their personal space and often a leader at a certain level within the herd with use it's body space to eject the offender to the outside of the circle and keep him there - a cocky bachelor colt will midbehave and the boss mare will relegate him to the borders of the herd, he'll pace there and watch for her to drop her guard which tells him he's forgiven and can re-enter.

So - when your horse is doing well, allow him to stop and rest often - this is the biggest reward we can give them, calm acceptance - he's gone through gait transitions and direction changes well, so he gets to walk for a while or perhaps stop for one minute to relax and not think hard.

When you're working him, take things slowly - get to the point where your confidence just starts to wane a little and only push a small amount after taht.

I would suggest your horse needs to be able to change directions and go through walk/trot gate transitions well before moving to anything else as these are the basis of control.  If he is asked to canter, he acts poorly then you let him quit - he's won.

When you're ready ask for the canter with a goal in mind - does he buck right away and act poorly?  Then your goal should be cantering half way round without acting up before he gets to stop and rest one minute.  Let's say he's laying his ears back and swishing his nose toward you - immediately step in front of him, switch hands and ask to change directions - this is work for him so he'll see it as a "slap on the wrist" if you will.  Then ask again, a couple times changing directions quickly and he'll learn not to lay his ears back and act nasty.  Then you can allow him to canter half way about then reward him.

Some times the horses will buck more when galloping because they are less easily controlled and feeling good so if you can get upwards/downwards transitions from a canter on the long line, he's doing pretty well.

You can also try this - it's an exercise meant to keep a horse from crowding your space but it might work.  Practice backing up and getting him to move away from you lightly - this is not really going to give him exercise though - it's more focused on the control and attitude.  With about a 15 ft rope, twirl the end toward his butt, maybe even touching him with it until he yeilds his hindquarters away from you - then either put both hands up toward his eye and even make a "sshhh" noise to cause him to step back.  He's now the one who's moved his feet.  Even half a stepback is worth a reward the first time.  Keep practicing until he'll back 20 feet.  The Parelli method may also be used - with him standing still in front of you and facing you - put a hand on your hip, hold the 15ft lead palm down with your index finger up (as if to say "no no").  Wiggle just your finger maybe 3-4 times, no response?  Now move your hand so your wrist twists and causes the lead to move a few times - no response?  Now move your whole hand back and forth a few times to cause a definite sway in the rope that may reach the halter - no response?  Wave your whole hand and forearm to make the rope swing bit and possibly snap quickly where it meets the halter - the head will eventually go up and he'll move a foot backwards-now STOP - immediatley stop and reward the backwards step.  Wait a moment for him to relax and enjoy his reward and try again - this time it will take less effot and I about guarantee ify ou do this right, he'll yeild and back up forever within a lesson or two.

THEN try lunging again - and when he acts poorly you have the control to stop him and back him up and send him off again - you'll be conditioned to control his feet better (even if not completely) and without touching him you'll be able to establish more leadership over him.  He will eventually canter well with or without a round pen.

I do caution, however - the lunging at the canter shouldn't be done for a whole 20 minutes - trotting is really the best conditioner for them - long trotting is best as it works the whole body while allowing good control.  When I lunge mine for condition, we walk with direction changes about 5 minutes, then trot (do gait transitions and direction changes mostly trotting) the next 10 minutes, then walk the last 5.  20 minutes is longer than you think when you're focused and in the middle of a lunge circle.  You think it's so boring - so keep it interesting seeing how much control over his feet you can build.

Good luck!

Answer 5

I'm not sure if he ever raced,  but in addition to all the information that the other posts offered, I would say be conscious of which direction your horse is going when he does this. My horse lounges wonderfully to the left, but if i send him to the right, he's a madman because he was never taught to go to the right and it causes him pain and discomfort because his muscles weren't developed that way. I say just lounge him consistently to the right for about a month, and don't let him get away with this behavior. Snap the whip at him if he turns to face you and back him up a few steps so he know that NO, that is a bad behavior, then send him back out. Make sure you stop the lounge on your own terms, and try to make it on good terms so you end on a good note. Also consider buying the book that is called "Straightening the Crooked Horse" to learn how to help straighten your horse. Good luck!

Answer 6

Well you clearly understand what is wanted in nice lunging...

If he tries to charge at you point your whip at him and clearly tell him "out".  Don't let him get close to you.  (As you mentioned, you already figured that out, but you have to have quick reflexes and learn to use your whip strategically to your advantage.)  

It sounds like your horse is getting progressively more sore every time you work him.  Do you give him some time off every now and then?

Especially for undermuscled horses, conditioning can be very rough and even painful.  If your horse used to be happy to canter and is now against it, he most likely feels physical discomfort.  A horses attitude doesn't just change overnight.  

Also, have you been feeding him more since he started working harder?

As for the round pen to lunging transition, try warming him up with a lunge line (walk maybe trot), then take the lunge line off and do some more work (trot and A LITTLE canter) just free in the round pen, then put the lunge line back on and do a little more canter.  Clearly you'll have to lunge in the round pen, which is always a good idea anyways.  Every time your horse does something well, reward him by allowing him to stop, drop your whip, and pet him.  

You said you want to teach him to lunge because you don't have a round pen but then later you said he's really good in the round pen and you work him in there...I'm confused...

I'm going to assume you do have a round pen, just not an optimal one...

Another thing that could be upsetting your horse, since you mentioned it's a big roundpen, is that he doesn't like working in smaller circles (like on a lunge line!).  This takes a lot more effort and muscle...

Remember you must allow your horse to adjust to new things slowly and comforatable.  I would suggest instead of just lunging him one day, do a little bit of both round penning and lunging, and gradually increase the time you lunge and decrease the time you round pen

good luck!!!

EDITED

ok thanks for clearing that up... Respecting your space is very important.  Try leading him around and carrying a crop with you, so if he tramples you, make him stop, back up, and stand still.  Then pat him as a reward for listening.  If he ever really tries to push you over or gets way too much in your space, use your crop on his chest to tell him to back off.  

I know its tempting to quickly slip on a halter and drag your horse with a rope thats 5 feet long ( I do this all the time  =P ), but while training him to be respectful, make sure you lead him properly EVERY TIME!!!!  Consistency and habit is very important in a horses training.  

Since you don't have a roundpen but you said you do work him every other day, I think it is the small circles on the lunge line that make him sore.  If you have a pasture or any closed off area try just kind of chasing him around and getting him to move in that.  Even an arena could work- he just needs to get stronger before being worked on a lunge line.  

If you have absolutely no area like that, try the lunge line again, but allow him to make the biggest circle possible, even if that means you have to walk/run in a circle too.  

If he's not willing to canter on the lunge line, make sure you're asking correctly.  Make sure your body isn't in front of his, but rather closer to his back end to encourage him forward.  Horses like to canter in groups so if you "canter" with him that might help him too (or he could just ignore you and think you're crazy, but it's worth trying and often works)  

Remember he is young and he will buck and be wild sometimes, as long as he is not getting too close to you then don't worry about it too much.  Lunging and riding are VERY different.  If you really don't want him to buck while lunging, do like what you would do if a horse bucks while you're riding...encourage/drive him forward...when riding you would do that with your seat, but while lunging you would do that with your whip or a cluck/voice command

Just a note...after you lunge him and use the whip to keep him spaced away from you and respecting you, rub him with it on his neck/body so he learns that whips aren't always bad.  He may otherwise become really scared of any whips-which will be a problem when you ride him.  

Good luck and I hope this helped some more...

Also remember to continually regulate his food, if he is too hungry or has eaten too much, he will feel sick and not want to work- understandably.