Are there any ! lds! mormons, who know why anti-mormons condemn joseph smiths testimony?

Question

are there any lds that have studied the history of the lds church and also the history of anti mormon allegations. ? can we know the answer to the discrepency of the joseph smith varied versions?

Answer 1

Actually there were 9 early accounts of the First vision. Are they contradictory? No. This is an excellent article that explains it all.

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vg...

And "Pastor"...all 6 of your claims are false. I'm sure you believe them but if the accusations fit your prejudices, truth is easliy pushed aside.

Edit:

Did you even read the article?? It's from the Ensign and it answers your question perfectly. One thing mentioned in the article is that sometimes the "discrepency" is that some part was missing from one and present in another. It was noted that omissions are NOT discrepencies.

I'm sorry if you don't know who I am. I've been around YA for a while but I'm LDS and have been for 31 years.

Answer 2

because they want to. you look hard enough you can make anything have the end result you want. my mother is a perfect example of this! no matter what is done or said somehow she finds a way to make someone elses fault. you can do that with any religion. you want to disprove something- there is always something out there that you can try and use to your advantage. lawyers do it all the time- they make something out of nothing to help their client regardless if it's the full truth or not!

Answer 3

1.  There isn't one bona fide witness who saw the golden plates.

2.  He claims on occasion to have had to run carrying the plates, which from his description, had to have weighed well over 200 if not 300 pounds, gold is really heavy.

3.  The resulting Book of Mormon sounds like it King James English.  People in up state New York did not talk that way in the 1820s.

4.  There are some chapters in the Book of Mormon which are word for word identical with some chapters in the King James Bible.

5.  No language expert has ever heard of "reformed Egyptian".

6.  No city, no feature of the land, has ever been found to verify what's written in the Book of Mormon.

His whole story just does not hold water.

Answer 4

No one else believes that there were any more prophets after the crucifiction of Jesus, and it seems odd that someone would find "plates" in the middle of nowhere in the Northeast of the US.  Stretches the imagination is all.  

Answer 5

Mormonism says it is a reinstatement of the original church from the time of the apostles. Funny how can be as the original church never died out.

Answer 6

The whole concept of being okay with Polygamy and then not being okay with it totally contradicts the validity of Joseph smith's testimony.

They also said that black people were "cursed" hence why you'll never find a black Mormon.

They also force you to tithe and last time I checked, giving was something that you do voluntarily.

Read "Mormonism 101"

It will blow your mind when you consider how anyone could possibly stay Mormon and not bother to read up on what they are actually supposed to be believing. I think people are just drawn to the warm family centered atmosphere but then don't ask the important questions like:

Who am I? (A child of God)

Where am I headed? (To h**l)

Why am I headed there? (because man sinned)

How do I stop it? (Jesus already stopped it, you just need repent which means to say your sorry and mean it and try to stop sinning.)

You might say: "But Mormons believe in Jesus don't they?" And the Answer is "no." They believe in a different Jesus. The Mormons say Jesus was "just a prophet" and "a" son of God and we are all sons of God but that's just not true. God created us and he has a "one and only son".

Many parts of the bible verify that Jesus was the son of God and not "just a prophet"

John 3:16 says "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son so that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life"

And that's plain as day. It can't be misinterpreted.

If you're reading this, You need to know God loves you and has a plan for your life. You just need to let him show you by asking for forgiveness. Have you lied? Stolen? maybe even murdered?

It doesn't matter how many times, God is a holy God and sin cannot be in his presence. That is why God sent his son, to pay for your sin so that he could have a relationship with you once again.

May God bless you!

Answer 7

Joseph Smith has some real problems with credibility.  LDS folks must follow him loosely to some degree because of some of his behaviors.  The fact that he sent off young married men to New York as missionaries and then apparently committed fornication with their wives is one example.  

Joseph Smith was a lover and a fighter, and not the best example of a godly man.  

His use of seer stones and his involvement with the Masons and their rituals does not help his reputation.  

Answer 8

The three separate versions of the first vision do not disagree with each other, but emphasize different aspects of the vision, revealing only what Joseph Smith felt willing to reveal.  To this day, much of the vision has never been revealed.  It was after all a personal vision, between God and Joseph Smith.  

I am amazed at the wealth of patently absurd accusations posted as answers to your question.  Why do people pretend to be experts, when they haven't studied the facts?

One person made the accusation that no reliable witnesses saw the Book of Mormon.  Actually five different people saw the Book of Mormon and the angel Moroni; four of them heard God proclaim the translation to be correct.  Three of them later lost faith in Joseph Smith, but none ever renounced their testimonies of what they had seen.  A hostile witness can be the best kind of witness.

Someone else accused Joseph of adultery.  There is no evidence that Joseph ever committed adultery.  People want to believe the worst, so they ignore the evidence, and look at the prophet through their own wicked eyes.

Another respondent accusses Joseph Smith of being a liar, while giving links to three websites that make hundreds of unfounded accusations.  What a hypocrite.

"...look into the papyrus J Smith claimed to translate. They rediscovered it in the 60's, finished translating it in the 80's. It was just an Egyptian book of the dead..."

This is just another example of ignoring the inconvient facts.  At least one non-member witness who saw the original Book of Abraham described it as being a large scroll in great condition written with two different colors of ink, and had a drawing of Adam and Eve talking to the snake.  This was clearly not among the scrolls that were recovered.

"Also the testimony of the man who found the plates."  ?? Joseph Smith found the plates.

"Smith claimed he got a certificate of authenticity but the man wrote on it later saying he gave no such thing to Smith, who's plates looked like nonsense from what you could tell."

It wasn't Smith, but Martin Harris who was looking for corroboration before he would loan the money for the publication.  He was satisfied with the "expert" testimony and gave Joseph the money to publish the book.

"The book of mormon includes a huge copy from revelations."

There isn't anything in the Book of Mormon from revelations.  Perhaps the accuser should actually read the book before making accusations.

"...there's a mistranslation in the book of mormon version that exactly the same as one found in the King james version avaible at the time Smith existed."

This is another example of the accuser being totally myopic.  The translation of Isaiah (not Revelation) that is found in the Book of Mormon is a strong testimony to the divinity of the Book of Mormon.  Here is a link to an article that discusses it:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon_...

"He claims on occasion to have had to run carrying the plates, which from his description, had to have weighed well over 200 if not 300 pounds, gold is really heavy."

The Mayans had a gold/copper alloy called Tumbaga which was lighter than pure gold, but had the appearance of gold.  Joseph never claimed the plates were pure gold, but only that they had the appearance of gold.

"No language expert has ever heard of 'reformed Egyptian'."

There were actually two different styles of written script that could be called "reformed Egyptian" during the days of Lehi; the Demotic and the Hieratic.  Some characters of these scripts look very much like the characters on the Anthon transcript.

Andrew D is so full of lies and misconceptions that it is hard to know where to begin.  First of all, polygamy isn't wrong when it is commanded of God.  The Book of Mormon, the Bible, and latter-day prophets are all in agreement on this.

http://www.deseretstudies.com/PolygamyIn...

Secondly, there are many black Mormons and the church is growing at a tremendous rate in Africa.  Blacks have been members since the days of Joseph Smith.  The Mormon church was the first Christian church to allow blacks to worship together with those of caucasian descent.

http://www.blacklds.org

Mormonism 101 is just another poorly researched attack on Mormonism.  It's accusations are easily refuted.

http://www.fairlds.org/Mormonism_201/

Last, but not least, Mormons believe that Jesus is the literal son of God, both in the spirit and in the flesh.  The LDS church is one of the few Christian churches that believes that Jesus was the Son of God.  Most other churches teach that he is God himself.  They want to have it both ways, so they explain it away as a mystery, but it is nonsense.  No one can be their own son or their own father without the words themselves losing all meaning.

The conclusion is obvious - those who condemn Joseph Smith's testimony and hurl false accusations against the church and the Book of Mormon are engaging in wishful thinking - they don't want to be wrong, so they grasp at straws.  Those who are willing to do an honest investigation, will quickly discover who is bearing false witness and who is telling the truth.

P.S. - Oceanwoman is making assumptions on faulty data.  All we have are rumors that any of the witnesses ever denied their testimony.  The witnesses themselves have given many statements refuting such accusations.

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/...

Answer 9

If Joseph Smith were on the witness stand and his differing versions of the First Vision were on trial, it would be declared a lie for several reasons.

Historical facts don't corroborate with the events he described.  There were no revival meetings near the time he said they were.  His mother's journal don't corroborate his claims.  There's no evidence of any Christian preacher persecuting young Joseph.  And this event was never included in early church history documents.  

Secondly, he couldn't keep his story straight.  Why did he pray?  Who did he see?  What was he told?  These points all enjoy very different response, not in the sense of elaboration but in direct contradiction.  In one, he knew no church was true, but wasn't sure about his standing with God.  In another he didn't know and wanted to find out.  

Early church historians were wise to keep it out.  Only circa 1860 did it start to appear with the prominence it has today.  When the first vision story is news to the likes of Brigham Young, he probably made it up.  That's where I land.

Answer 10

I have studied the history of the Church, and most of the anti allegations. Most of them are outdated or just incorrect. IF they have any sources they are usually the "he said, she said, her uncles brother heard..." sort of history. I really like www.fairlds.org and www.farms.byu.edu because they focus on the discrepancies in the History, the accusations of the antis, and the sources for both sides. I have found that fairlds takes a very honest open stance on things and doesn't "hide" as so many accuse the church of doing.

I have been a member my whole life and only recently heard about the mountain meadow massacre. Now dont go thinking it was "hid" from me, it wasnt, it just isnt taught over the pulpit. I was, as anyone should be, horrified. I went looking, researching, and reading. I found the answers I needed and am stronger then ever in my belief that I am in the right place. I always find it a bit laughable when researching these things to see how shaky (if it exists at all) the sources are for the claims. I have very little faith that those accusing have done any research other then on anti websites that lie and twist the truth.

example: the changes in the early Book of Mormon: Stupid punctiation and similar wording. These things are EXPECTED when you are translating something and reading it outloud to someone who is writing it down. Joseph Smith was translating at a fast pace which made it worse. There is no doctrine changes....there are no add ons or large edits. Just little changes in spelling or words like right instead of write.

The people who ask these dont ask to know the answer, they dont want to SEE that their source is weak, or that there is another side. They want to destroy my faith. Theyre intentions are fueled, NOT out of brotherly love, but out of intolerance, hate, and ignorance. They have done what they accuse us of doing and followed others blindly, only towards contention and self rightousness.

"by their fruits ye shall know them"

I have had some (very few) who discussed my faith with me with respect. They have asked hard questions, not to throw it in my face but to know my perspective. We have usually agreed to disagree but we both walked away with more knowledge then we had before and a better understanding of the other persons faith. Thank you to those who really want to know, not so they can be converted, but out of a desire to know where we are coming from.

Answer 11

Yes, there are 3 different accounts of the first vision that Joseph Smith wrote. Some Anti Mormon Site has it somewhere, i'll try to look it up.

Answer 12

Read the different versions of Paul's conversion.

People expect Joseph Smith to be perfect, because they believe the New Testament apostles to be perfect (even tho they say they don't). But they hold Joseph Smith to a double standard.

That's why they don't believe in living prophets to day because they, deep down, believe that a man has to be perfect to be called of God to be a prophet. They will deny it to their dying day but that's what they believe.

Answer 13

My boyfriend was an Elder in the LDS religion. He went on his mission and didn't leave the church until he was 22. Joseph Smith read "golden plates" out of a HAT. The people are FAKE and so is everything Joseph Smith said. Not to mention all the other garbage they fed him.  

Answer 14

Overview of the three witnesses:

Most of the witnesses are related by blood.

The three witnesses were all of questionable character

Joseph Smith said Dec 16, 1838, "Such characters as McLellin, John Witmer, David Witmer, Oliver Cowdry, and Martin Harris are too mean to mention; and we had liked to have forgotten them." History of the Church, Vol 3, p232

Brigham Young said, "Some of the Witnesses of the Book of Mormon, who handled the plates and conversed with the angels of God, were afterwards left to doubt and to disbelieve that they had ever seen an angel." (Journal of Discourses, Vol 7, page 164, 1859, Brigham Young.)

All three witnesses were eventually excommunicated from the Mormon church.

Two of the three witnesses who were excommunicated from the Mormon church later returned to the church after denying their testimony. Imagine if any one of the apostles denied their witness that Jesus rose from the dead, were kicked out of the early church, then returned again. Their testimony would be of no value. Remember that all three denied the Mormon faith at one point, and one never came back to the Mormon church going to his grave denying his testimony, yet Mormons still use his testimony for the book of Mormon. In fact, David Whitmer never returned to the LDS church that he was a witness for, but joined splinter groups that denied the original LDS church he was first a member of.

Some Mormons will agree that all three witnesses denied the book of Mormon but came back to deny their denial. Imagine the twelve APOSTLES suddenly denying Jesus rose from the dead in public, only to ask people to ignore their denials and accept their testimony once again. This the apostles of Christ never did.



NOTE:

(1) we KNOW that JS had no problem lying publically about polygamy. (2) We have NO evidence that he even claimed the first vision happened until at least a decade after 1820. (3) Even the members of his own family had no recollection of him even claiming to have had the first vision. (4) The historical record of revivals in the area is not consistent with the claims of the first vision. (5) Even Brigham Young was not aware of the details of the first vision.

Given all this one can conclude "beyond reasonable doubt and to a moral certainty" that the first vision never happened and JS was just lying about it.

WHAT is the most reasonable conclusion based on the real facts?  

Isn't it odd that over 40 years after Joseph's alleged "first vision", Church leaders like Brigham Young and John Taylor  were still unaware of Joseph Smith's claim of seeing God the Father and Jesus Christ?  

That's because Joseph's "first vision" was a consistently changing story that was virtually unknown to early Latter-day Saints.  Over the years Joseph's story changed from an event in the year 1823 to 1821 to 1820.

Answer 15

The biggest part of it can be found by studying him and his actions himself.  He was a fairly shy child and didnt talk much.  (I could go way more into detail, but I think the statement is sufficient for this)

His official accounts, while never contradictory, get more detailed as time goes on and he develops confidence.  

He seems to never really trust things fully until he moves to Kirtland and even then it isnt until Nauvoo that he really opens up.  So as he realizes he isnt receiving just a normal spiritual manifestation and is really called be a prophet and all that entails, he is slowly gaining confidence and boldness.

Answer 16

Yes, I know why they condemn it, but I disagree with their conclusions.  And their hateful, hurtful attitudes when they condemn it is not "Christlike" at all.  That in and of itself makes me want to stay as far as possible from the anti's.  If being like them is what it takes to be a "real Christian", then I'll happily remain Mormon.

Answer 17

There is no answers to the claims Smith made.  Try as you may you cannot make a lie into truth.  

Answer 18

LDS are like JWs. If you catch them in a lie, they swear, "I never said that."

Answer 19

I'm a former member of the church if that helps you at all, not quite what your looking for I know.

For one thing, look into the papyrus J Smith claimed to translate. They rediscovered it in the 60's, finished translating it in the 80's. It was just an Egyptian book of the dead, very common to be buried in egypt where the scrolls came from. Sort of proves Smith wasn't right.

Also the testimony of the man who found the plates. Smith claimed he got a certificate of authenticity but the man wrote on it later saying he gave no such thing to Smith, who's plates looked like nonsense from what you could tell.

The book of mormon includes a huge copy from revelations. But there's a mistranslation in the book of mormon version that exactly the same as one found in the King james version avaible at the time Smith existed. If the book of mormon was protected from the apacrasy it would not have had the same mistranslation as one specific version of the bible, the one the mormons/protestants use.