Atheists, Christians, could you evaluate this argument?

Question

1. Some Christians claim that God cannot have evil or sin in his presence.

2. People who believe and repent still retain their sinful disposition.

3.Therefore, in order to allow these people into Heaven, God must purge them of their sinful natures in some fashion.

4. This demonstrates that God is capable of but not willing to purge the sin of unbelievers because of a personal grudge, regardless of how much good is in them or what their reasons for not believing are.

5. Therefore, God is a hypocrite because he tells Christians to indefinitely forgive those that transgress against them but does not do the same himself.

6. Hypocrisy is a sin.

7. God cannot sin, therefore the concept of a Christian God that sends people to h**l is a logical impossibility.

Answer 1

God, faith, spirituality and the likes cannot be proved or disproved by the use of a formula, otherwise it would be a science.

Answer 2

"Some Christians claim that God cannot have evil or sin in his presence."

As a Righteous GOD, He must punish sin. Yet GOD is omnipresent, so I'm not sure if it's correct to say evil can't be in His presence. Rather, as a just GOD, He will not allow evil to go unpunished.

"People who believe and repent still retain their sinful disposition."

But are also given Christ's Nature.

"Therefore, in order to allow these people into Heaven, God must purge them of their sinful natures in some fashion."

He already has, in Christ.

"because of a personal grudge"

A personal grudge?! Do you have any idea how bad sin is to a Holy GOD? Imagine if somebody had raped, mutilated and killed someone close to you. Would you term your disgust with them/their actions as a "personal grudge"? I think you need more of a revelation of how bad sin is to a Holy GOD. Sin is when we either dishonour GOD or something/someone He has made. It is infinitely bad. Don't downplay the significance of it.

"regardless of how much good is in them or what their reasons for not believing are."

No good is in anyone. Even the good we think we do is from a heart of evil (e.g. selfishness- I'm doing good because it makes me feel good, or because I'm scared of repercussions if I'm not, etc.) Nobody desires to have GOD be the Lord of their lives, and yet that is what He is- the Lord and GOD of the universe. Therefore we are all sinners and there is no good in any of us.

"Therefore, God is a hypocrite because he tells Christians to indefinitely forgive those that transgress against them but does not do the same himself."

No. We are not allowed to not-forgive somebody because WE OURSELVES are sinners. Hypothetically if anyone was without sin, like Jesus, I believe they would have the right to judge others. We do not.

BTW, GOD also tells us not to be jealous (or at least, not to covet), yet He describes Himself as a jealous GOD when blasting the Israelites for their idolatory. He's allowed to be jealous when people worship the Created rather than the Creator because He alone is worthy of our worship. We're not allowed to be jealous for any reason.

"Hypocrisy is a sin."

Good thing GOD's not a hypocrit then.

"God cannot sin, therefore the concept of a Christian God that sends people to h**l is a logical impossibility."

Why? The concept of a good, just GOD who sends sinful people to heaven is a logical impossibility (except through Atonement). BTW GOD is under no obligation to save anyone- if He sent everyone to h**l, He would still be loving and just. The fact that He decides to save any sinner is evidence of His unmerited mercy (grace). But as sinners, who are we to demand it for ourselves or anyone else? Grace is completely undeserved. GOD gives it out because He chooses to.

"Changed to sinless flesh in heaven." "Regardless, this denotes a transformation that God is capable of inducing and refusing to induce. My point stands, unless you can come up with better."

Who is responsible for man being a sinner? GOD or man? Man.

If GOD is merciful enough to transform the repentant sinner (in heaven, or at any other point), what is that to you? GOD is not unjust for not having changed him before- in fact He would still be just even if He never chose to change anyone.

"Yet he forgives it. Why only for believers? Why is Jesus's sacrifice incapable of extending to all other sinners, if he "took the punishment" for us? If Jesus took the punishment ONLY for those who believed, is not this still being selective?"

GOD's method of Salvation is one which gives HIM glory alone. It is through the Atonement of Christ which is made available to all who believe- for we are saved by faith, through grace, not by works. If it were based on good deeds or something else, we would get part of the glory. GOD made this method of Salvation available but men reject it because their deeds are evil. This method of Salvation is a "stumbling block" to those who try and earn it.

John 3:18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

GOD's kindness leads men to repentance. Those who live by the truth gladly accept what Jesus has done for them (turn to Him in faith and repentance). Those who do not, do not.

""Why do you think God commanded people be stoned to death for sinning before Jesus came?"

Thou shalt not murder. Make up your mind, d**n it!"

There's a difference between murder and killing. Capital punishment and just war are both Biblical concepts

Answer 3

See, you started off wrong. You were trying to use logic instead key words like Jesus and nomosexuals.  

Answer 4

Your argument fails at #4.  God IS willing to purge the sin of ANYONE, however, he is perfectly just.  To pardon someone for nothing isn't just.  In order to God to maintain perfect justice, sin must be punished.  Jesus, being the only sinless human being ever, was the one who took that punishment for those who believe in Him, thus "purging" them of their sins, which resolves the conflict you present in points 2 and 3.

EDIT-- You don't understand what I'm saying.  If God simply forgave everyone for sinning simply to do so, He would be pardoning sin itself.  Sin MUST be punished.  Why do you think God commanded people be stoned to death for sinning before Jesus came?

EDIT 2--How can someone accept a gift if they don't believe anything was offered to them?  And it's "Thou shalt not commit murder" not "thou shalt not kill."  Murder is UNLAWFUL, premeditated killing.  Execution would have been lawful if God's law had been broken.

Answer 5

You get it very well.  That is just simple thinking and now do you see what I mean about those who cannot think.  Good remarks.

Answer 6

you went wrong on part 2.

sinful disposition maybe, but right at that moment of forgiveness you are completely free. You are forgiven of ALL sins, and God will not hold that against you.

Answer 7

Point number three is incorrect, which means that every point after that falls down as incorrect.

Jesus doesn't "purge" us of our sinful nature.  Instead, He gives His perfect record to our account in heaven as a free gift when we believe that Jesus, who is God, died for our sins on the cross and rose from the dead.  

All saved believers are still sinners.  The sinful flesh is changed to sinless flesh in heaven, not before.

It is that simple to avoid being sent to eternal h**l, that all you need is to believe the above truth about Jesus and what He has done.

Answer 8

I don't know if you've got the logic perfectly stated, but basically you are correct.

Answer 9

First of all Vardarac, you need to stick to either the Holy Bible or the New Testament when making an argument, especially where Christianity is concerned. The two are contradictory by nature and by bouncing back and forth you argue apples v. oranges. Understand that while the hebrew bible is considered a sacred text it is not the scripture by which Christians live their lives.

Now to tackle your argument.

#1. God can't have evil in his presence? wrong...GOD said in Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the lord do all these things." That statement ALONE destroys whatever argument you have that follows.

#2. You say they believe? They say they believe? Either way, nobody is perfect. Sure some people do, while others do not. Who are you to judge? That won't wash.

#3.This is where the New Testament steps in. Jesus died for our sins and through our belief in him our sins are forgiven. If you are referring to the Hebrew Bible then please quote your source.

#4.see previous point

#5.you are beating a dead horse now.

#6. hypocrisy is a sin? cite please

#7. your logic is abhorrent, since your steps up to this point have no basis...

You have no argument. Merely a group of redundant statements in an attempt to make a point.  please try again.

and please while you are at it... quote me your sources from the Holy Bible (not the New Testament) regarding h**l and salvation since this seems to be your primary source regarding Christianity. thanks

BTW...I apologize if my answer was patronizing and/or offensive. I didn't mean for to be.

Answer 10

I think the premises 5 to 7 are enough to prove your point. God expecting us to forgive indefinitely, but he himself can't forgive you unless you pass his conditions...I mean that's totally hypocritical.. Could this be the reason why Christians are hypocrites too? NOooo

Answer 11

It's not that your second argument is false, but people don't retain their sinful disposition when they repent. Rather, they still have the capability to sin, but the sins they repent for are forgiven. Repenting is asking God to forgive you for your sins. Your third argument is strong though, because no sinner is allowed into heaven and sin is not allowed in heaven in the first place. God only lets his "true" followers, whatever that means, into heaven. This "transformation" that you speak of only strengthens your argument in that God is able to forgive people, but is unwilling.

I'm not arguing against you though. In fact, I agree with you. If nobody is able to sin in heaven, then everyone will be a mindless robot following only one purpose. Therefore, God would have succeeded in creating "sinless flesh" but at the cost of losing individuality and free will. To God, not giving him all the attention he wants is the greatest sin, so he punishes you forever by sending you to eternal hellfire? Sounds like some attention-seeking, spoiled child if you ask me.

"Love me, live for me, and follow me or I'll let you burn until the end of time!" Exactly the kind of God you'd follow, no?

Heck no!

Answer 12

The argument is moot as god does not exist.