Question:

Atheists, no gods exist at all? As per your request my argument ...?

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My position is grounded in the fact that many atheists use faulty logic in their position that because there is no evidence for gods, they do not exist. That in itself is faulty logic because lack of evidence does not equate to non-existence. A definition of god that can be proven has been requested of me, as has the evidence to support that "god's" existence.

Definition: I propose the definition of one who is worshiped through invocation and sacrifice. This, unlike the supernatural requirements of many of the atheists' definition, meet all standards of being deemed a god. To clarify, the word "god" is a title that originates in the early proto language of the Indo-European peoples. Not that I care for Wikipedia, but its handy and understandable:

>>> The Proto-Germanic meaning of *ǥuđán and its etymology is uncertain. It is generally agreed that it derives from a Proto-Indo-European neuter passive perfect participle *ǵʰu-tó-m. This form within (late) Proto-Indo-European itself was possibly ambiguous, either derived from a root *ǵʰeu̯- "to pour, libate" (Sanskrit huta, see hotṛ), or from a root *ǵʰau̯- (*ǵʰeu̯h2-) "to call, to invoke" (Sanskrit hūta). Sanskrit hutá = "having been sacrificed", from the verb root hu = "sacrifice", but a smallish shift of meaning could give the meaning "one who sacrifices are made to".

Depending on which possibility is preferred, the pre-Christian meaning of the Germanic term may either have been (in the "pouring" case) "libation" or "that which is libated upon, idol" — or, as Watkins[1] opines in the light of Greek χυτη γαια "poured earth" meaning "tumulus", "the Germanic form may have referred in the first instance to the spirit immanent in a burial mound" — or (in the "invoke" case) "invocation, prayer" (compare the meanings of Sanskrit brahman) or "that which is invoked". <<<

The notion of worship is as follows:

worship (n.) Look up worship at Dictionary.com

O.E. worðscip, wurðscip (Anglian), weorðscipe (W.Saxon) "condition of being worthy, honor, renown," from weorð "worthy" (see worth) + -scipe (see -ship). Sense of "reverence paid to a supernatural or divine being" is first recorded c.1300. The original sense is preserved in the title worshipful (c.1300). The verb is recorded from c.1200.

Pay close attention to the above dates as regards the evolution of the word into their modern christian, and oddly enough atheist, usages.

Now, the definitions being set the argument is simply this: We know that the Germanic tribes honored their ancestors, wells, trees, and kings with sacrifice, invocation and deemed them worthy of praise (worship). We also know that early tribal structures elevated their ancestors and heroes to godly status. Therefore, gods have existed and still exist.

You cannot resort to the literary sources to deny the above definitions of "god" because, according to your responses in my other question, the literary evidence is not reliable. Likewise, the literary evidence does not necessarily support the actual cult of the time - not being contemporary and all.

You cannot say that the above definition is invalid, because it is actually a real definition and not influenced by christian world-view. And apparently according to your fellow atheists, since atheists don't believe in gods, they don't have to define the subject matter of their arguments.

So, can you, as atheists, still make the blanket, all encompassing claim that "no gods exist" ?

Again, this is not about the christian god, because I'll side with atheists on that any day of the week. It is also not about the gods of literature, because again, I'll side with atheists. It is about what gods are themselves and the evidence to support them.

Can you refute my position and provide evidence to support it?

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22 ANSWERS


  1. I would never claim with certainty that God does not exist.

    I will however claim with 100% certainty that gods do not appear to exist.

    Which is of course a primary characteristic of things that do not exist.

    (There&#039;s a lot of haze in these statements, &quot;god&quot; is not accurately defined).


  2. I&#039;m embarrassed for the both of us.

  3. Ha, I wish I would read that.

    School doesn&#039;t start for another four days bud.  

  4. I didn&#039;t read most of that.

    Anyway, we don&#039;t say that god is impossible to exist. But because of no evidence is highly UNLIKELY to exist. There&#039;s a difference.


  5. You say that atheists believe that because there is no evidence for gods, they do not exist.  This assumption is incorrect, IMO.  I say that because there is no evidence for gods, I don&#039;t have to believe in them.


  6. Ok, so you readily agree there&#039;s no evidence for a god?

    And yet you believe in one?

    1/4 Watt lamp

    peace


  7. Unfortunately for You....

    Its all in &#039;Your&#039; mind!!!

    .

  8. Your overly long mess merely shows two things: The fallacy of argument by argument, and the fallacy of demanding a negative proof.

    So, since your whole argument is fallacious, your results are equally fallacious.

    Until someone CAN offer up some objective evidence FOR a deity, it is irrational to suggest that one exists. Just as it is irrational to believe in a tea pot orbiting Mars without any evidence for that claim...

    Hint: Definitions AREN&#039;T proof/evidence. I can give you a heckuva definition for Klingons, that doesn&#039;t mean that they exist... Duh.

  9. &quot;So, can you, as atheists, still make the blanket, all encompassing claim that &#039;no gods exist&#039;?&quot;

    Yes, I can.  Feel better now?

  10. &quot;That in itself is faulty logic because lack of evidence does not equate to non-existence.&quot;

    Wrong.  Prove to me leprechauns don&#039;t exist.  Go ahead, prove it.

    EPIC FAIL.

  11. There is no evidence that any God exists, but that has never stopped humans from inventing one.  I suspect the Neanderthals had a god, like the sun for example.

    We seek answers to questions for which there are no answers, like &quot;What started life?&quot;  There is no provable answer to that question but there are many theories, including the God theory.

    I am agnostic/deist.  I think God was the &#039;big bang&#039;.  I have no proof that is a fact, it is just my opinion.

  12. In short, your definition of a God is someone made up by humans.

    Deny that all you want to, but I can arbitrarily assign a definition to a God as well.

    MY definition of Zeus is the cause of lightning in the clouds. Science has another name, but I call it Zeus! Therefore Gods exist!

    Right?

  13. d**n semantics.


  14. I think you are being pedantic. Yes it depends how you define &#039;gods&#039;, but generally I refer to the notion of a supernatural god, which is inherently false.

  15. &gt;My position is grounded in the fact that many atheists use faulty logic in their position that because there is no evidence for gods, they do not exist. That in itself is faulty logic because lack of evidence does not equate to non-existence.

    No evidence or lack thereof can logically imply certainty of existence or nonexistence in the real world. The real world has no axioms, and therefore we cannot deal in proofs with it, only in evidence and probabilities. That said, Occam&#039;s Razor states that if there is no evidence for something, the logical position is to believe that it does not exist, because the simplest universe that logically explains everything is the most probable. You can read more about Occam&#039;s Razor here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam&#039;s_Raz...

    &gt;Definition: I propose the definition of one who is worshiped through invocation and sacrifice. This, unlike the supernatural requirements of many of the atheists&#039; definition, meet all standards of being deemed a god.

    I reject that definition. If it were correct, then it would be possible for, say, an aztec emperor to be defined as a god so long as his subjects worship him, despite having no supernatural powers whatsoever. I don&#039;t agree with this. Although his subjects may even believe he is a god, that doesn&#039;t make him a god; he remains a human being who just happens to be worshipped, not because he possesses any actual supernatural powers but merely because he was the right person&#039;s son or because he supposedly fulfilled some ancient prophecy that was probably changed dozens of times in the retelling anyway. He does not possess the supernatural qualities his subjects attribute to him, and therefore the god they worship does not actually match the human which they worship as being that god. He is simply not a god. To say that he is would be to redefine &#039;god&#039; in a way that is not useful for actual discussion on religion, and if we were to use the word &#039;god&#039; this way, we would simply have to think up another term to refer to what we currently name by the term &#039;god&#039;, in order to go on knowing what it is we&#039;re arguing about. What&#039;s the point in that? I mean, consider an analogy. One could say that since Aristotle said water was an element before we discovered that water is actually a compound of oxygen and hydrogen, we should consider the word &#039;water&#039; to mean what we currently call &#039;oxygen&#039;. But what would that do for us? We would simply end up with two words for oxygen and no words for water, and have to think up a new word for water. There&#039;s no point.

  16. If a god exists, then it is not of this universe, it does not help, hinder or effect this universe in anyway, therefore, as far as beings living in this universe are concerned, the god doesn&#039;t exist. In fact, it&#039;s probably true to say that anything at all, outside of THIS universe, does not exist in concern to beings living inside of this universe. The possibility that a god (of which the definition is open to infinite interpretation) may exist in another universe is of absolutely no concern to anyone unless said god has the ability to cross from its universe into our, which it clearly does not. The definition of god is not worth debating, as to the vast majority of people, it means an all powerful entity that has the power to create universes and exist outside time. Again, anything that exists outside of time, to us, does not exist at all.

  17. Do you really think I am bored enough to read all that c**p?

    I would have to be nearly as much of a saddo as you are to post it.

  18. I have been buried under a wall of text...

    Send help.

  19. If you define &#039;gods&#039; as &#039;that which people worship&#039;, then sure, there are gods.

    But you&#039;ve lowered the bar to the point where Brett Favre qualifies as a god.

  20. Some ancient peoples used to worship the Sun as a god (and some probably still do). Clearly, I don&#039;t deny that the Sun exists.  However, I do deny that the Sun has any consciousness or divine qualities which qualify it as a &quot;god.&quot;  The simple act of worship of a person or object does not mean that they are a god to anyone other than the person doing the worshipping.  Therefore, while there could be millions of different gods to millions of different people, none of those gods exist to me personally, because I do not invoke or sacrifice for any of them.  Simply put, just because someone else worships the Sun as a god does not mean that I have to acknowledge that the Sun is a god as well.

  21. Fail from the start as you assume in your premise that atheists make a claim that no gods exist.  In reality only a minority of strong atheists do that.  Most of us are weak atheists, who simply don&#039;t believe the arguments and &quot;evidence&quot; yet presented rise to the standard of validating claims for divine existence.

    Even if you had not made that mistake,  all you managed to do in that diatribe is prove that people have INVENTED gods.  We already accept that of course, just not the idea that these gods are actually immanent phenomena.

    Much simpler etymology than your cut and paste job would have shown you that atheist simply means one without a belief in gods, not one without a belief that others worship gods.

  22. PLEASE STOP TYPING!

    My Demon is having a Brain Hemorrhage!

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