Best Way to Explain the Concept of Acupuncture/Meridians to a Scientist?

Question

Since Acupuncture has been proven in a Scientific vigorous Randomised Clinical Control Trials to work, how can a scientist fit the concept of acupuncture, and meridians into his/her scientific belief system?

Answer 1

I don't have the time to write big stories with reasons.

So I use only one. If something works good for hundreds of years, it did provided enough evidence to me and no so called "scientific methods" lasting measly 10-20 years can change that.

It is easy to to explain the concept to an open minded scientist, nevertheless, trying it on SkepDoc is a futile mission.

Like the Doctrine-mouse said about a month ago

He wouldn't believe in aliens, even if one lands in his bedroom.

He will be pushing his "science" even if he is abducted by them.

Answer 2

It has never been proven to "work" to a greater degree than that expected by the placebo response.  As always, I would be interested in the study you are referring to if you think there is definitive "proof".

Magic doesn't fit into my belief system.

EDIT:  thanks for the references. The first one is from 1995 (ancient history in science) and doesn't even have an abstract.

The second one is an abstract/interview with the author. While this is a largish study, and sounds like they made an attempt at randomizing, and placebo control it is hardly definitive proof.  It needs to be repeated by others who don't have a vested interest in proving acupuncture works.  We never change practice just based on a single study. It is over 4 years old, and I'm not aware that it has been repeated by the author or others.  The author is well known in sCAM circles, and is not an unbiased researcher.  It is known how author bias can influence reported study outcomes.

The third one is just a Google search

FYI here is a Meta-analysis of a variety of pooled acupuncture studies which essentially shows nothing special.

http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/abstra...

Most scientists don't use BBC documentaries on AltMed as their most reliable source of information.

EDIT2  Lightening. Bla bla bla. Sure one can say it "works" if one accepts that all it is doing is activating the placebo response, and inducing endogenous opioids and various neurotransmitters.  But that is not what acupuncturists claim, is it?  It is also not what Skorpian asked, as he wants to know how to convince me that meridians, chi and chakras exist.  There is still no evidence of the mystical explanation, and if it does work at all, lets at least be honest in how it "works".

If you and your ilk actually spent any time reading my answers or thinking about the issue instead of just automatically giving me a thumbs down because you haven't liked what I've said in the past, perhaps we could have an honest dialogue.  

The scientific method simply has turned out to be the single best way of investigating the world and nature ever developed.  You can't pick and choose when to follow it based on whether it doesn't support your pet philosophy, as you seem to do.

EDIT3  Savannah.  where to start with the poor noobie?  While I am sure your personal experience is very important to you, 1000 anecdotes does still not equal evidence.  And sweetie? the scientific method has been slowly developed over the last 400 years.  Evidence acrues and builds based on the work of previous scientists.  It is continually being refined and confirmed/refuted by other scientists...the innate self correcting ability of scient.    The amount of science we need to know and understand, just for you to post your vapid comments on this forum is staggering.  You also changed the subject and committed a particularly egregious logical error by accusing me (in advance...are you psychic, too?) of not believing in aliens even if one landed in my bedroom.

Since you seem to be quite young, ignorant and naive, I will leave it at that for now.  But, you should know I don't suffer fools gladly, and you seem to be edging towards being a Y!A fool.  Trust me, find another niche, as there are lots of those already.

Answer 3

I think that any good scientist can accept the fact that there are things about how the human body works that we just don't know yet. I'd present the evidence from randomized clinical trials and show that it does work for certain conditions--it's certainly not something that a scientist is going to reject unless that scientist is extremely closed-minded and bent against acupuncture. For example, I'd be hard-pressed to think of any doctors who wouldn't recommend that his/her patient get acupuncture if it had been shown to improve the condition of his/her patient.

Answer 4

When one has a belief system and has gone down the track of buying into that system it is very difficult for them to accept that anything that shakes that or doesn't fit into that model is a possibility.

It's like trying to convert a fundamental Christian to Atheism or vice versa.

Allopathic medicine, the reductionist research model and "science" is very much a belief system.

I use the word science in inverted coma's because I really don't understand how many people who claim to be scientists have the audacity to assert that they believe in science when they will only acknowledge what they can understand and choose to ignore what they don't understand and write it off as non existent.

new ways of measuring are becoming established. When this has been further developed we may have a better understanding of non conventional medical system.

Even then you will have hard liners denying it and labelling anything contrary to conventional thinking as "Heresy".

Many systems of complementary health care are based on philosophies assisting nature and helping the body to heal itself.

It makes me chuckle when i see comments from Skepdoc which are in short saying these methods are quite good at unlocking the placebo effect but alos implying that they fail in their objectives and don't do what they claim.

Correct me if i am wrong but if you set out to assist nature and in the process unlock placebo which is an increadibly powerful self healing mechanism haven't you assisted nature and helped the body heal itself?

I'll also point out that a lot of people who seek complemetary treatment have tried the allopathic route and found it unsuccessful. If all they needed to do was beleive they were going to get better in order to do so why didn't they before?

Why don't your patients believe in you Skepdoc?

You're a clever guy, can't you convince them some more?

Edit.

"Lightening. Bla bla bla. Sure one can say it "works" if one accepts that all it is doing is activating the placebo response, and inducing endogenous opioids and various neurotransmitters. But that is not what acupuncturists claim, is it? It is also not what Skorpian asked, as he wants to know how to convince me that meridians, chi and chakras exist."

###Ok that is a fair point###

"There is still no evidence of the mystical explanation, and if it does work at all, lets at least be honest in how it "works""

###It is entirely possible that the mechanism described by practitioner os TCM doesn't exist. However there could be another mechanism. Yes i agree we should be honest in how it works.

For what its worth i don't buy into meridians and chakra's either although I do beleive there is an energetic element to us which hasn't been fully explored or established. What I am sick of reading is "we don't know how it works so it doesn't exist"

It can no longer be denied that acupuncture is effective so we now get a begrudged "Acupuncture is good at bringing out the placebo effect"####

"If you and your ilk actually spent any time reading my answers or thinking about the issue instead of just automatically giving me a thumbs down because you haven't liked what I've said in the past, perhaps we could have an honest dialogue."

##I'm all for an honest dialogue. I Have reported you on occasion but only when I feel you have broken the rules. On this occasion I don't feel you have so haven't reported you or given you the thumbs down.##



"The scientific method simply has turned out to be the single best way of investigating the world and nature ever developed. You can't pick and choose when to follow it based on whether it doesn't support your pet philosophy, as you seem to do"

###Scientist are now using a different model working from the outside in and incorporating as many factors as they know about which could influence the results. This will become the new model as the flaws in the old system, which was good 50 years ago, are now apparent.

I have a very clear philosophy on health care and do not pick and choose. Because I don't condemn another therapy when it is contrary to my belief system does not mean I follow it or beleive in it it means i am giving it the respect I would expect from someone who did not understand my system of health care.

For what it's worth I think you are probably a very sincere guy and a good responsible practitioner. For example your views on issuing prescriptions are proabably not so different to mine.

Answer 5

Meridians are lines on water for a prejudiced scientist.  That Scientist cannot see it, understand it or believe it, unless he himself has found it out, just like an axis of earth or longitudes and latitudes.

Answer 6

placebo - having no pharmacological effect but given merely to satisfy a patient who supposes it to be a medicine. this might help them understand.