Bitting question and training for a finished bit?

Question

since all horses are different and the ultimate end is to have a soft mouthed horse who listens to the slightest touch of the reigns,i would like to ask all of you "what is the proper progression of bits from green to a long shank high port curb bit,or for english riders a double bridle or a two line curb pelham"

Answer 1

Simple in the end my goal is bitless:)  My girl has never had any type of "hard" bit in her mouth only a snaffle, the most mild you can get:)  I never start or finish a horse with anything but.  No curb, no straight bar, no long shanks, and so on.  This is all on Western gear, english?  Well I'll leave that up to the english riders:)  

Answer 2

I fall under the English portion of your question and specifically fall under a full bridle or weymouth bridle with both a bridoon and a curb bit.  So, here goes!!

At the beginning or breaking stage we long line using a driving style snaffle bit..we also use this same type of snaffle when using a bitting rig also.  We use either a regular jointed snaffle or a Dr. Bristol to entice mouthing.

As training progresses we pretty much stay with the same type of bit ...even while jogging in a jog cart...until we work under saddle and even then, we a not rapid fire to stick the two bits in their mouths as we want to work off the snaffle more,  so that  the curb is engaged for collection and head setting and not for "braking".  This does not occur until the horse is well on their way under saddle.

Rarely during training do we train in the full bridle..and use a German Martingale along with some type of snaffle or straight bar bit.  We also don't always use a cavesson either as we want to encourage mouthing and not restrict the jaw..I know many might not think that a regular cavesson has this effect but it does!!

Prior to showing is when we will ride in th full bridle and then in the show ring we really get what we want because the horse is more sensitive to the use of the curb and snaffle bit together.

Now, a different scenario might be the many variations of the mouthpieces on the bits..which is relative to each individual horse.

Ok..I'm done thinking for the day!!  It's a Holiday weekend and the brains gotta rest!!

**EDIT**

I ride Saddlebreds but am also surrounded by Morgans and ride Saddleseat.  If it makes a difference!!

**EDIT to EDIT**

PRS or PRC--I think you have the wrong idea of the use of two bits.  It is not used as a more severe bit..but rather to finesse the head carriage that is wanted in Dressage as well as Saddleseat riding. If used properly you would see that most of the pressure is engaged on the snaffle rein and not the curb. This is the only bridle used when showing in those disciplines so there is no changing tradition..and we are taught to have very soft hands..like holding a bird in each one and not squishing it!!

Here is a picture if you care to see what they look like.  Again, there are many variations as to the length and port of the curb.  And, the bradoon (snaffle) too.

http://www.nationalbridle.com/product-p/...

Answer 3

The only time I needed to finish horses into curb bits was when it was required for showing.  I used a double reined Pelham to make the transition to a curb action.  My horses were trained to respond to seat and leg cues for most of what is performed, so the transition was not a major issue.  I also used rein chains for showing, which basically allowed me to use a curb without ever engaging the bit...the warning felt through the chains brought the response.  When I started a horse from scratch, I used a bosal, to rubber mouth colt bit, to snaffle progression....and only finished in a curb if the horse would be shown.

Answer 4

In my opinion, you should never need a long shank, high port curb bit. Or TWO bits!!! There is no "proper progression" into such a thing!!!  Some  horses respond in a ring snaffle for their entire lives and never need to move to another bit.  My best friend barrel races her 11 year old mare in a ring snaffle( the very same one she started her in) and has perfect control!  If I keep a horse in a bit, I ride in the mildest bit possible for as long as he responds well and may never move to another bit.  I don't necessarily move to a "harsher bit" but might move to a bit that works a little different.  I bought a gelding many years ago that was being ridden in an Argentine Snaffle.  He had an annoying habit of grabbing at the shanks so I moved him into a wonder bit.  The wonder bit has a little gag action and a curb chain but a milder snaffle mouth piece and shorter shanks, but you attach the reins to the shanks or the ring part.  It worked for him and he's been in the same bit for 15 years!  I've had my older mare on a very short shanked, snaffle mouthed training bit for 12 years!  She is 25 years old and still uses the same bit she always had. I actually prefer my Dr. Cook's bitless bridle, but I only have one bitless bridle and three horses soooo someone has to ride with a bit sometimes.

Answer 5

I have only ever ridden English, so I can't guess as to the western bits, but I feel I should make one thing clear; do not confuse double bitting and pelhams, they are entirely different bits with different actions for different uses, the only similarity is their appearance.

A pelham is a single curb-style bit with a shank, usually used with roundings to homogenise the effect and make it possible to ride with a single rein, but when used with double reins the only difference is that pressure is either put directly on the mouth or through leverage via the shanks to make it stronger. It is often used on 'strong' horses with inexperienced riders to give more control. It is not a bit to 'progress' to, but one to progress from if possible.

The double bridle is an entirely different thing altogether. As it consists of two bits, one of them is used more; this is the bridoon which is simply a small, thin jointed snaffle bit through which almost all the horse's mouth aids are given. The other bit, the curb, is an unjointed bit, usually with a port to allow for the tongue and shanks that produce leverage and pressure on both mouth and poll. As such, if proper training is applied, the double bridle is a direct progression from a soft snaffle mouth, the curb merely adds extra control to ask for advanced collection.

The double bridle should be introduced at Elementary level triaining; while it is permitted to compete elementary in a double, it's not advisable as the horse has not has time to adjust, and there are no movments at this level that cannot be done in a snaffle bridle. It is best to train in it while competing elementary so the horse is ready to introduce competing in it at Medium.

Sometimes a double or pelham can be seen in show classes (especially in pony or hunter classes) to make the horse/pony bend the neck and appear on the bit, some of these animals have been genuinely well-trained, it is just common for it to be used as a short-cut, in which case there is no progression, just misuse.

In response to the answerer below me, the double bridle is only harsh in the wrong hands (as with any bit), when used correctly, it acts in much the same way as a snaffle. In fact, because there are two bits, it is milder than a gag or other shank bit as the leverage is only an option. A normal port does not add harshness, on the contrary, it takes pressure off the sensitive tongue. The reason for using a double bridle is to add more accurate and sensitive control for advanced dressage movements, it is NOT to add harshness.

I'm personally not a fan of pelhams, but they too, are not necessarily a harsher bit when in the right hands, although they're all too frequently used when training might be better.

I've seen double bridles used like feathering a harp and snaffles used like instruments of torture; so it's mostly in the rider, although I think some bits on the market are unnecessarily  (and genuinely) harsh.

Answer 6

Western: i dont beleive that you would really NEED to use such a bit on any horse. What i would do is start the horse is a french link or sweet iron snaffle, and engrave the basics. then, as they were able to progress to more complicated training, i would teach them to neck-rein and travel on a loose rein in consistant frame suitable for the desired western discipline. when they are doing well, i would put a short shanked snaffle-mouth bit like an Argentine snaffle in their mouth and work on the transition from snaffle to curb. this should be easy by now because they would already know what is expected from them. once they are doing well in that bit, i would get a longer shanked show bit, preferably a snaffle mouth with showy shanks. but if you wanted to go the curb route, then now is the time you would switch, but instead of getting a show bit with a snaffle mouth, i would get a longer shanked bit with a low port. then i would get the show bit with the port. i would still do most of my training in the argentine snaffle, however, and save the high-port bit for shows.

English: i'm not big in dressage no i'm not sure about training for a double bridle. i'm not going to try to answer this one, because i'm not confident in my ability to do so correctly.

Edit: am i correct in assuming that this question is for showing, not pleasure riding? if it were pleasure riding, there is no need to progress farther than a bitless, or a french link or argentine snaffle, but there are rules that a horse over five years old cannot be shown in a snaffle, and that's why i assumed it was for showing... if this is not case please let me know. =]

Answer 7

Well I only know info in spoon bits really.  All the horses I rode were finished or almost finished in bit training.  There was one filly that I helped train to take a bit.

We used just a bosal on her so that we had control but wouldn't hurt her.  After teaching her legs cues and such, then we put a mild spoon bit along with the bosal.  We kept reins just on the bosal but let her get the feel of the bit in her mouth.  She played with it until she was really calm with it.  Once she got to that stage we put reins on the spoon bit and kept the bosal and reins on her too.  We used very light pressure on the bit to see how sensitive she would be.

I rode her like that for almost a year until she was able to respond to the light pressure of the spoon bit.  This takes a rider that has soft hands and doesn't rush a horse.

With persistence she turned into a really great mare that turns on a dime with the slightest feel of rein pressure.  She is used in drill so horses that respond fast to small cues is a great thing!

Answer 8

um.. i'm probably gonna make myself look liek a fool trying this since i am not that experienced with bits, but heck, i'll give it a shot.

smooth loose ring snaffle

smooth d ring snaffle

twisted d ring snaffle

smooth dogbone jr. cowhorse (if that even exists, i'm just trying to describe tulsa's bit lol)

then that same bit but the reins are moved down to the shank

and then the same bit but the reins moved down to the shank

and then a bit with a small port with small shanks

and then progress to bits with bigger and bigger port and bigger and bigger shanks.

ok. stop laughing. i probably didn't even do what you wanted to hear. lol. i need to graduate bit school.

but, then again, if you want to have that soft mouthed horse that listens to the slightest of touch, then you shouldn't need that crazy long shank high port contraption bit at all! all you should need is a smooth loose ring snaffle.