Can't sleep so here is my question?

Question

Why is it that so many people on here think that it is OK to have ahorse that charges a person (regardless of the reason) and not deal with it in a manner that will insure the horse will never do it again?

For me I really do have a three strike rule (I have never used it but I have one in place, always have and always believed in it). The first time a horse turns agressive, either with a kick or charge I do use a whip, the second a club, and the third time a gun. I have never had to go beyond the whip, but you had better believe I will if given reason. This is no joke with me. I do not play games with a thousand pound animal that could easily kill you.

Sorry done ranting. I just get tired of people trying to pretend they can handle horses when they are unwilling to do what is neccessary for the horse and everyone else's safety.

Answer 1

I agree with you!!!!!  I was taught by old timers, cowboys & even old a vaquero . Like Debi said, you go at them as hard as you can & darn right mean it!!! I have had to a few times working for a man who was a horse trader. I was the first to ride everything he had. Sure made me tough! LOL  I am not into mean horses!!!! I don't like to have to worry about my horse hurting me or even more my little one. I will NOT stand for such things!! I agree they are waayyyy toooo big for them to get away with things!!!!

Answer 2

I couldn't agree more.  Its sad when people think its ok for there horse to be aggressive, to wonder if the next time they approached them it may be the last.  I take a firm swift hand when dealing with the aggressive horse, it wont happen more than twice.  

I have two here right now that the owner couldn't go near because of the aggression and I'm talking severe aggression.  Straight off the trailer i establish who i am in this herd.  Scared the hauler to so i must have been doing something right LOL.  I dont have the time or energy to fight a 1000 pound plus beast everyday.   Now the two here stand very quite when im near and i started bring in other people so they just dont react that way to me.   Next week the new people will start ground training with them.  

I think people think they are fragile, they will break or something.  You reach out to bite me you may be picking up teeth off the ground, one thing i will not tolerate.  Charging Ugh snap that whip.  

The improtant thing is to stay safe no matter what you do, always know where your at...Oh we just had an earthquake cool 5.8...Sorry my puter shook really bad.  Where was i LOL??? I always think ahead, what if something happened, do i have an exit plan?  I always make sure someone knows i am going to the horses or i have a second person with me, for safety reasons.  If someone has a horse they can not handle the best thing to do is to find someone who can...We all cant know everything or fix everything, never be afraid to ask for help its out there...

Get some sleep dude you cant fix everyone, they will always think as they wish.  As you see many agree with you and i think you give good sound advise on here when i read your answers, keep it up...hopefully they listen.

Answer 3

Hi Jeff

Sorry you cant sleep..

I have lots of questions like these myself, and not just with horses but with life issues in general. I can get so worked up about things aswell that I feel like exploding...... anyway... getting back on track....

Well, thats great info you've given there! Now I know what to do when my colt grows up and if he decides to charge...

Im going straight down to my tack shop to buy my club and gun..

Any good makes you can recommend?

:-P

Hope you can eventually sleep tonight x

Edit: You are welcome! All jokes aside though, yeah you are totally right. Im all for natural horsemanship and dealing with the animal in a cleverly thought out situation whereby the horse has choice, but when it comes to aggressiveness and our safety is jepoardised, Im right with you on the club/gun thought..

An aggressive horse's teeth and legs are no match against mine....

Edit 2: Jeez man, just read your edit! You are maybe a calm person but you are perhaps grumpy in the mornings! Lighten up. My response was trying to add some fun! Ergh

Answer 4

There are all kinds of animal owners, and if you look at it in black and white, they fall into only those that are responsible, and those that are not...

But the story doesn't end there..

MOST people think that they are a good animal owner, even if the animal is a fish, dog, or horse, and refuse (sometimes aggressively) to be told that they aren't doing a good job...

Also, most animal cruelty is not through deliberate harm, but through ignorance, and so there is the biggest problem...

For those owners that the true animal lover and expert sees as not doing the right thing, it's often almost impossible to try to step in and try to educate them, and to say that they could be doing better (nobody wants to be told that they aren't doing a good job)...

Also, an animal may do something to you, that you would find unacceptable, but to the owner, it may seem normal, or even amusing... Let me give you an example...

I have a neighbor who has a dog, a very crazy dog that they think is funny... The truth (in my opinion) is that the dog is out of control, and will often play by chewing on, and pulling at it's leash with it's teeth...

For me that is NOT acceptable... a leash for a dog is a device to control (gently) the animal, and he must respect it... If it is seen by the dog as a plaything, then the moment that something DOES go wrong (like a cat running in front of a bus) the dog will understand that the leash is a solid barrier, and it's not a battle to try to get to the cat (and remove it's nose on the bus in the process...

BUT.. if I went to them and told them that in fact they were endangering both the lives of their dog, AND the family by leaving a dog in a condition where it may pull the "leader" in front of a bus at any time, they would become angry with me and tell me that I didn't know what I was talking about...

Soooo.. there are stupid people.... MANY OF THEM... and you can't fix stupid...

what you MAY be able to do, is to research methods to try to help train the horse, and then POSSIBLY offer to help (but beware if the animal is dangerous, you may be risking YOUR life)...

Otherwise, and if you truly feel that the animal in question is enduring a miserable life, I'd place an anonymous call to the local animal welfare group/Humane society, and then be prepared for the owner to become slightly hostile with you (if they suspect you) for reporting the problem..

I honestly congratulate you, for having great ideals for what is fair and right in the treatment of an animal.. If I might suggest one thing, it's to leave the "gun" as the FINAL option, and when ALL others have been exhausted... I have made a life of training many "untrainable" and dangerous horses, and I've never used a gun yet....

So I wish you well with your animals, in the knowledge that you have a GOOD head start amongst other owners for what should be done... And hope that a good restful sleep finds you soon...

Sleep well, dream well, for when tomorrow comes, it's all yours ;)

Answer 5

A lot of people treat their horses like they are made of glass, like the slightest thing will hurt them.  Which is ridiculous when the horses are so much bigger than us, and do way worse to each other than we could ever do to them.  I get after my horses quickly over anything and everything.  They have to know that they cannot get away with anything but politeness.  I now have horses who wouldn't even think of cocking a leg at a human, which is fantastic because I can trust them around non-horse people and not worry about something dumb happening when people walk behind them.  I have seen more horses with poor ground manners than with good ground manners.  People think it's mean to even lay a hand on a horse, they think saying "no" will get the message across.  Apparently they didn't get the memo that horses communicate through body language and not through the English language!

But the same is true in the world of dogs.  How many poorly behaved dogs do you know?  I'd say 90% of the dogs I come across are obnoxious and have no boundaries.  Again, people are afraid to show them who is boss.  That doesn't mean beating them, it just means speaking their language, and having repercussions for bad behaviour beyond someone yelling "no" at them.

And don't even get me started on kids...hahaha!

Answer 6

thru the years i have had my share of aggressive horses and i have found that most of it is from herd behavior problems but some of the worst are the ones that were spoiled and were allowed the run of the place then the owners would give them a treat,i don't believe in treats for rewarding horses but i will give them one out of the blue but only when i say so and they are usually eating at the time,if i do have a pushy or aggressive horse i bring out the whip or crop first,if they charge thru those then i will get my cattle sorting stick (otherwise known as a shock pole) and for those who think that it is cruel to use one remember another horse would draw blood in a herd and this is like giving them a pinch and it is long enough to get the body and not the head even when they try to bite.i have aggressive horses that are used for range bulls and grumpy cows but i had them proud cut for just that purpose and they respect me and i respect them and i don't let anyone ride them unless they know how to handle a proud horse but for the average pleasure rider they would get hurt on them.some people think horses are cute but when you have been stomped,kicked,rolled and knocked unconscious by one you gain a lot of respect for them fast.

Answer 7

Well, I come from an era where I've actually seen aggressive horses two-by-foured and even shot.  I will say that most of the aggression I've seen from horses over many years has been explainable and trainable, but the ones I've seen get whacked were definitely killers at heart.  It's not something that I relished seeing happen, and I think it is rarely called for, but there are horses that are just dangerous and shouldn't be handled by anyone who doesn't know the difference between a cranky moment and a killer instinct.

I feel the same way about dangerous dogs....animals that are dangerous are a threat to everyone, so I don't want someone else choosing for me whether or not to let an animal like that risk my safety.

I think if you've never seen a really aggressive horse attack, it's hard to imagine any reason for ever taking the extreme measures you are describing here.  That said, it isn't something that needs doing in the majority of cases.  Like most things, there is a time when it is appropriate.....and that's when it's either you or the horse.

EDIT....Actually, I wasn't thinking about your 3 strike rule when I wrote that....yes, I'd say the third time is the charm, so to speak.

Answer 8

I am so with you on that. Way I was taught was by a couple of old time horse people that if you are attacked you hit back straight away with the first thing that comes to hand and you mean it. A horse is too big and too dangerous to mess around with. I don't know if I'd go as far as shooting it but I do despair of people who think that if they talk to it nicely and feed it peppermints it will make it be nice.

Answer 9

I couldn't agree more!  I've ticked off a few on this forum for saying what I know is "A" (there are often more than one) correct answer, even though it may offend.  I don't guess at answers just to rack up answered questions, I genuinely like to help others with less experience and as a result, help the horse involved.  Some people view this as my taking advantage of yet, another opportunity to act like an "expert".  Actually, by taking the time to genuinely answer questions, I have been able to help a lot of people who email me directly for a more one on one type of exchange.  I have grown to realize that some people really don't want help.  In the last few months, I've had occasion to read a lot of your good, "common sense" answers which obviously came from a "horseman", because I feel that you are motivated by the desire to help others as well.  Well now, just wanted to take this opportunity to let you know that your experience, expertise, common sense and helpfulness are appreciated.....funny thing, it's usually the one's that need to hear what you are saying that don't really realize what help that they are receiving.  Guess I will step down off my soapbox now...I'm another one that couldn't sleep.

EDIT*******Oh, to answer your original question, they just don't know enough about horses in general to respect what damage that they can do, either accidentally or deliberately.

Answer 10

Well, Jeff, let me start by saying I am sorry you can't sleep. I DO NOT believe it's okay to keep a horse that charges around- and I never will !!! One of the reasons why I lost all respect for race trainer D Wayne Lukas, in fact, was because he elected to keep the horse that almost KILLED HIS SON ALIVE, when I would have euthanized that animal on the spot for such behavior. Tabasco Cat charged Jeff Lucas when he was a 2 year old and kicked him in the head. Lucas suffered a skull fracture and was in a coma for a couple of months, and when he woke up, there was talk that he would never walk again, much less ride or do anything else which required physical effort. He recovered to a large degree, but he still suffers after effects from his injury, and he will always have permanent brain damage. I felt awful for his family- and I think his dad was both stupid and irresponsible to keep that horse alive. It makes no difference to me that he went on to win the Preakness and Belmont the following year- what matters is that there is a person out there who has suffered permanent brain damage and will never be entirely normal again because of what that horse did.  You are right, Jeff-  there are some horses out there which are born man killers- and it would appear that Tabasco Cat was one of these animals. He's dead now, thank heavens- he died of a heart attack in the breeding shed at the age of 13- but HE NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN ALLOWED to LIVE after what he did to Jeff Lucas, LET ALONE ENTER STUD and pass on his horrendous temper and genes to future generations. Sooner or later, one of his get or grandget, or great grandget, is going TO KILL SOMEONE ELSE, and when that happens, I have to wonder if anyone else other than me will make the connection with the past.  When a horse behaves the way that colt did, the animal's right to life becomes forfiet IMMEDIATELY, I don't care if the horse appears to be worth a million bucks otherwise. Human life ALWAYS TAKES PRECEDENCE over animal life, PERIOD !!

This is just my take on this- and I have known some horses which were chronic rearers, and at least one stud who was a striker- another dangerous and potentially deadly habit, especially in a stallion. It only takes a MILD blow from a horse's hoof to fracture a human skull- and you are smart to recognize this, Jeff. I don't know as I would ever be able to use a gun on a horse- I am afraid of them most of the time and have never shot one- but I certainly would have no qualms about calling a vet in to euthanize an aggressive, dangerous animal. If needed, perhaps the horse could be tranked with a dart, and then destroyed after that. Sure, I know that sounds aggressive- but to me, it's better than having to pay a visit to the ICU, or to the morgue, to identify a child or a loved one who has been killed or badly injured by a viscious horse.

Interesting question- go figure !!

Answer 11

You are absolutely right Jeff. However, my only concern with your post is that those same types of people (ones who have little knowledge, do not know the difference between a fright reaction and pure disrespect,and apparently no time to do any REAL research) would see this as a go ahead to abuse an already frightened horse, thereby ruining a potentially good mount. My little rescued mare was one such horse. She was a kicker, biter, and at times was totally unmanageable. I just had the good fortune to witness what her previous owners had done. They had picked her up at an auction for 50 dollars, starved and terrified. When she acted up, or refused a command, she was hit with a stick. Underweight and underfed, they took her on a 30 mile trail ride, galling her so badly that she started turning and kicking with both feet whenever she saw a saddle. I looked at her and saw the misery she was in, and offered to triple their money on this horse they were about to shoot. I am happy to report that Grace is sound, well adjusted, no longer kicks, bites, or refuses a halter or saddle, all because I took the time( I have had her for 5 months now) to work on her fear issues. She is well on her way to being a perfectly good trail horse.  Now, they had another little mare that was just plain disrespectful, and they took her back to auction. She should have been put down with your three strike rule, she was dangerous. She did many of the same things Grace did, but with a totally different agenda. Not everybody can tell the difference, they certainly couldn't. Bottom line is, I agree with you, but with the stipulation that if people don't know the difference between fear and pure dominence /aggression /disrespect, they should seek an experienced trainer.

*Edit*

I know what you mean. Around here, in central KY, I've seen way too many cases of abuse and neglect. Most horses are TB or TWH, and people don't think twice about using harsh methods for a quicker result. You know, starve 'em so they don't have the strength to fight, punch 'em in the face to get them to move their head, etc.  There is a time and place for metting out physical punishment, not to simply gain compliance through fear. As you said, the other extreme is not responsibly taking action when a situation occurs that is potentially dangerous. "Ohhhhh...I could never hit my horse!" Well be prepared to have a horse that may become a threat and have to be put down. Extremists are very rarely centered on facts, and most often ruled by emotion. Cheers!

Answer 12

my girlfriend clubbed a horse that bit her daughter. I know of a man in MN that did the same thing for horse biting

Answer 13

I have a couple of thoughts for you, Jeff.

First, people don't realize how much of a disservice they are doing to the horse by allowing it to become aggressive. There may be horses in the world that are born aggressive, but I think they are really rare. The rest of the time, there is a person that either made the horse aggressive or allowed it to become aggressive. My experience parallels yours that if you beat the snot out of a horse the FIRST time he shows an aggressive behavior, that he will NEVER do it again. Please note that aggression is the only thing I would ever beat a horse for. John Lyons says that you have three seconds to make the horse think he's going to die - and then you stop.

People also don't consider the consequences to their horses for allowing the behavior. Aggressive horses end up being sold when their owners can't handle them or get hurt (or killed) trying, and they go to auctions to end up as food, or they end up in rodeos, or they just get abandoned to starve to death.

People also don't realize that horses are horses and not four legged people. If you are disciplining a human child, you can use language to explain what he did wrong, take away the Nintendo for a week, and he understands his punishment. Horses don't have much vocal language and they don't play Nintendo, so physical punishment is pretty much the only kind they understand. In a horse herd the alpha horse keeps the others in line by kicking or biting or personal space invasions. The non-alphas know their places and accept the discipline from their alpha. As herd animals, horses need someone who tells them what to do in the absence of their alpha. They will actually feel more assured and confident when their leader is genuinely, completely, and without question in charge. This is a different way of thinking than humans who usually prefer more egalitarian group decision making.

Most of the users on YA are tween girls that read stories the totally romanticize uncontrollable horses that only one person can connect with. As an adult, I wonder what would have happened to the Black Stallion if Alec had ever gotten sick or hurt and couldn't take care of him. The horse would have to have been euthanized because no one else could handle him. What an awful thought, but that's the reality versus the fantasy.  There is an unintended message in these stories that having an uncontrollable horse makes you a good horse person.

As a kid, I read such stories, and bought into those ideas myself. As an example, I used to let my horse walk off while I was mounting. I thought that made me a good rider because I could handle mounting while the horse was moving. It was many years later that I realized that having a horse with good manners that stood quietly to be mounted made me a better rider - not because I could handle the walking off but because I could prevent it from happening in the first place. Although that's a pretty tame example, I think the same thinking applies to many in this group. They want to prove they can handle an aggressive horse, so they allow the horse to become aggressive to test themselves thinking that will make them a better horseman. They don't realize that preventing aggression from ever starting makes them a better horseman.

If there are two things I cannot abide they are undisciplined children and undisciplined animals. Not because it’s bad for me or other people around them (which it is) but because it’s bad for them. So, MY horse will ALWAYS mind his manners for EVERYONE that handles him. If he breaks the horsy rules, he will get punished appropriately. It’s better for me, it’s better for him, and it’s better for everyone we meet.

Answer 14

I have to say I agree with you. I've only dealt with one horse with issues and he was the sweetest boy so that wasn't a problem. I haven't seen a horse properly charge before but I have seen the damage done by one horse to another - a horse at my friends yard was so badly beaten up by other horses in the field that she can never be ridden again. Horses are big powerful animals who can do a lot of damage and if a horse is truly aggressive then the safety of those around must be considered.

I dont' agree with hitting a horse unless safety requires it - we have a 2 year old colt and he's like most 2 year olds in that he puts everything in his mouth. This means he can nip sometimes - this is the one thing that he does get a smack for because a horse can do a lot of damage with their teeth and so we figure better to stop now while he still has baby teeth and before he starts bitting properly.

While I don't agree with hitting horses I have also seen some horses who have come from homes where they were never reprimanded and they can be very dangerous - not because they are nasty or aggressive but simply because they will try to walk over you!

Answer 15

I've always wondered why people are always like "don't smack the horse it won't know why" and other similar things. Personally if a horse gets aggressive I will discipline it with a whip. Not long and abusing but to the point that the horse knows it wasn't acceptable. And people wonder why my horses have respect.....grrr...