Can we call a truce in the adoption forum?

Question

I've noticed a LOT of accusations of lying and treachery going around lately. Hate speech, anger, and just plain disrespect. Most of us have lurked on this particular forum for a really long time... None of us has changed our minds and it seems like it's become a battle of who-can-lash-out-at-who and who-can-thumbs-down-the-other-side-more. The ones with bad experiences jump down the throats of those with good experiences, and the pro-adoption-ers lash out at anyone who speaks negatively...

Do you think it's possible for us to continue offering advice and discuss the issues of adoption that we disagree on in a respectful manner?

Yes? No?

Answer 1

On this forum, I've learned a lot from both sides of adoption.  I've seen those who love it, hate it, and everything in between.  I have found that if we each try to place ourselves in the other's footsteps, we might learn to be more tolerant of each other.  I've asked questions and been bashed for them.  I've also answered some and been thumbs downed, just because someone doesn't believe in how to adopt, not because the answer was wrong.  I wish it were kind of like feedback on ebay, and when you put a thumbs up or down, put your reason.

Also, I've seen (and have been) the new person in the forum, and many people have left, just because they can't stand the hatred.  If we all followed a rule that my grandma said, "and if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all" that we'd actually be able to get our points, both positive and negative towards adoption out there.  I've seen a few people who's ideas seem so radical, and their views so "poison" that I have to think to myself, that this person must have had a rougher time in their adoption than others.  Both in traditional and adopted families, I've known happy and unhappy kids.  I know many kids who grew up with their biological families, and wish they were adopted, and vise-versa.  The behavior of some kid's parents, that abuse both mentally and/or physically should never be acceptable, in any type of family.  

It's kind of ironic, that I've learned more about my biological son's abandonement by his father than I have my adopted son's situation, where his bio family is now around, and he knows he's loved by all.  I think that many on this forum need to realize that their situations aren't typical, and not all adoption end up bad.  The adoptees I've known all my life, and the ones I meet now seem to have a better sense about their own self than many people on here.  On the other hand, I've met several people who I message regularly, and have met the nicest, most helpful people also.  I know one in particular here that doesn't like me, and I wish they'd hold off their thumbs down because my answer is wrong, not because they don't like the truth.

Answer 2

You know what?  I only log in when I see people attacking folks I have a great fondness for.  I don't "know" any of these people, personally, but a great friend of mine has told me about you all, and since I spent a long time lurking on here before actually posting, I almost feel like I know some of you.  When I see people attacking adoptees, or friends of mine, or friends of MY friend, I'm not going to keep my mouth shut.  I don't work well that way.  Maybe it will be different once this baby is out of me, but at the moment, I'm a tad irritable, and I'm not going to sit by idly and listen to people ramming it down your throats that you ought to be glad you have a loving family which, last I checked, ought to be a given, and it's MESSED UP any time you DON'T get that.  (Not to mentio nthe fact that the ASSUMPTION is that you got a loving family, when a lot of you didn't.)  In other words, why should you be grateful for something you should have anyway?  Sorry I'm rambling, but I've been really irritated lately at the bashing of adoptee's.  The only time I log in is to defend the folks I care about.  Zuko, I've never even talked to you, but it makes me hurt when folks like you are triggered by insensitive jerkoff's who don't know the firs thing (or care), and they just spout off their d**n mouths without giving two sh*ts who they huirt.  When things die down again (and I know they will), you won't see me around for a long time.  But for now, I'll take all the thums down you jerks can hand out, because I will NOT keep my mouth shut!

I had a horrific childhood.  I'm just now learning to have a voice.  And by God, I'm going to USE IT!

Answer 3

Well, as someone who was one of the most disrespectful, sarcastic people when I came on this site, I think the fury comes for a reason.  I think the hostility comes from one of two things, either people are just bored and stir things up OR they are reacting with extreme defensiveness because, while what they read is shocking, it also strikes a chord.  Over time it becomes apparent what one's motivations are.  I asked this all the time, why I am I coming back to this STUPID site, these people are crazy!!  Some of those I fought with I have the greatest respect for now.  I can't tell you how many times I was blocked.

So, the fighting is not all bad, if it comes from searching. This is a sensitive and complex subject.  Sometimes people from all parts of the triad need a good butt kicking.  As for the ones who are just trolls, they will get bored and go away.  Can we call a truce?  We can, but it never lasts.  New people will come and they will be just as hostile and shocked, and that isn't always a bad thing.

Answer 4

And now we see why there can't be a truce on here.  

People who want to say that adoptees speaking on forums are in need of help.  Of course, she doesn't see the irony that she's here, ranting on a forum.  Which means, by her own standards, that she's in need of help.  (And given her vitriolic attacks from the get go, that's been pretty obvious to everyone except her alter egos.)

The problem is that nice doesn't work here.  Gandhi himself would be hard pressed to keep his cool with some people around here.  There are a number of people (on all sides of the discussion) who are reasonable and could get a long.  But it never lasts because someone comes around to stir it up again.  That polarizes us, and sends us to our respective corners.  

If we're nice, we're safely ignored.  If we're straight up, we're dismissed as crazy.  

The problem is deeper than personality, though.  There are three positions (speaking broadly):

(1) Adoption is wonderful.  (all good)

(2) Adoption is complicated.  (some good, some bad, all difficult)

(3) Adoption is evil.  (all bad)

There are few people here who believe (3), but there are some.  Those that I have seen generally don't object to people who believe (2), but they do have a problem with (1).  And most of the people who believe (2) don't really argue with those who believe (3), though they do often go out of their way to disavow that position.  

The real vitriol is between (1) and the other two groups.  And there is no middle ground between (1) and (2) (or 3, for that matter).  How can someone who believes (2) acknowledge the "truth" of (1)?  And how can someone who believes (1) respect the position of (2)?  

It's true we can, and should, separate the person from the belief.  But I cannot have any respect for the belief represented by (1).  It ignores ample evidence of complications around adoption.  it seeks to marginalize and pathologize anyone who doesn't accept (1).  If (2) is true, then (1) has to be false.  (Likewise if (3) is true, but I expect more people will admit (2) than (3) on here.)  I can show respect for the person, but not the belief.

Answer 5

I agree, I hope I come across as honest, but not rude. Being rude gets you nowhere, and makes you look immature. No one listens to someone who is immature.

We each have different experiences and they are ALL valuable. I may not agree with others POV's but I hope that if I sincerely consider others opinions, even if I don't "adopt" (no pun intended) them as my own, then others will see that and at least give me the same courtesy.

We are getting nowhere, and it is ridiculous. We are all adults here, we need to act like it. We need to let the petty stuff go and focus on the big picture... The Kids

Tickled Blue- You are AWESOME!!! I totally agree, I my views on adoption have done a 360 since coming here. Had it not been for the downright passion about getting their point across, no matter what the consequence, I would probably still see adoption through those good ol' rose colored glasses!

Answer 6

This may be hard to accomplish because both sides are very passionate about their experience. However we should understand that not everyone is going through the same thing and situations may differ.

Answer 7

I hear you and I understand....BUT:

As I have said several times, the 'angry adoptees' in this forum LITERALLY forced me to question what I was doing. They weren't nice, they weren't friendly, they weren't welcoming, and they didn't think I was doing a wonderful thing. Which caused me to look at their arguments. Sure, they say things in a mean way sometimes....but only when I have asked a completely insensitive question. Many of them...if they don't recognize your avatar or name... will even bother to explain to the poster WHY they are offended by the question.

Had they NOT completely assualted everything I believed about adoption, I would have NEVER asked the vital questions that I needed to ask BEFORE proceeding. Their commentary--both bad and good--has made me a better adoptive mother. Their anger subsides when WE finally get it.....NOT when we agree with them on every issue, but when we are willing to listen and understand the MANY facets of adoption. MY adoption experience has been wonderful....but that does NOT mean that my child's will absolutely be wonderful, that he will not face all sorts of issues as he grows and understands his life and his past and future. A part of him is missing. I don't want to dwell on that or make his life about loss, but I would be a fool not to address it and help him to cope with it and understand that my happiness came through his loss. Without the 'angry adoptees' out there, I would have renamed my child and probably told him about adoption when he was 'old enough to understand all of the issues'. I would have never known that his BC records would be changed or that his medical records would be blacked out or missing, nor would I have cared. I would have never known the huge ethical problems with adoption--even through foster care. I would never have known to care. My sister--early on before we had adopted--said we could have a 'gotcha day' and I agreed it would be fun....and she wanted to plan the whole thing...yay......I cannot even imagine myself saying those words these days. I don't even know that person any longer. My sister brought it up again a month ago....and I cringed....but I would have NEVER understood it had these wonderful, 'hateful', 'angry' people not been here to show me the light. I thank them daily--often when I look at my child and KNOW how close I came to being a clueless adoptive mother who just thought everything would work itself out and all I had to do was just love him, and rainbows and kittens would appear.

<<adoptive mommy through foster care.

Answer 8

It would be nice to see a truce, but I don't know if it will happen.  I think that we are each here for our own personal reasons and those reasons mean a lot...to us.  We are personally insulted by others reasons for being here and it starts arguements.  Usually, I sit in the background...but sometimes something comes up that I am passionate about as well, and I have gotten my feathers ruffled before.

I think that those of us who would like to see a peaceful co-existance on this forum just have to lead the way.

Answer 9

I agree with you wholeheartedly.  Frankly, we're all in this together.  Every last one of us, no matter what our connection to adoption is, is living with a situation that is less than ideal, if you define ideal as  healthy, wealthy parents raising a healthy, grounded in reality child who is genetically related to them and was gestated in the wife's womb.

Most of us can look at our situation and say: I wish it was different.  Some of us can even do our best to MAKE it different, and better for the rest of the group, or at least better for the triad we are involved with.

Answer 10

It would sure be nice.

I don't think this forum is helpful to anyone except to give people a forum to blow off steam to strangers.  Nothing really helpful about that either.

Answer 11

Sure - I'll give it a try.

Until a certain crazy person hit the boards - I just went along a did my thing.

She touched a nerve - I'm human - what can I say!!!!

The things she says are literally straight from the NCFA handbook - and extremely triggering for those that have had to fight against stupidity their entire lives.

HO HUM - I guess we'll just keep on keeping on.

She's still at it - I don't think she has an off switch.

I'm working on letting it just wash over me. Nudge me anytime you think she's sending me back over to the dark side!!!

The funniest thing I've come to realize from all this - she may be the one person that could be the reason for the rest of us uniting!!!

She is more extreme than I've ever seen here - on any side of the adoption quadrilateral!!!

Now THAT would be a fine thing!!!!

Sorry all for allowing a stranger among us to send me on a posting frenzy. (I've written more Q's in the last few days than I have since I've been here - and I've been here almost 12 months!!)

You can now return to your normal programming!!!

LOL.

Answer 12

Political correctness run amok.  

I have two relatives that are living with me in kinship care agreements. They do not give a hill a beans about culture, heritage or angrates. They are just thankful to have made it out of their situations alive.

And now I find myself having the luxury of explaining to the eight year old that mommy is NOT coming back for you because she is having a baby and the new boyfriend and her just don't see YOU in the picture.

I kid you not she told me "You wanted kids so much you keep the little b#@tch". The hubby and I will be raising the next one in a few years when the novelty hascorrectness

No amount of public welfare benefits or universal health care coverage would be enough to rectify this situation.

The fourteen year old is now referring to her mom and dad as "the egg donor and the sperm donor".  So pardon me if I do not buy into to this whole political correctness c**p.

Everyone here that is anti-adoption can turn their heads to situations like this but these are the very reasons for adoption. If either of these girls entered the foster care system chances are they would never be adopted. The damage is done and not many people are willing to invest the time and patience to teach them how to trust and love again. My husband an I are because we love them so I take offense to us being refered to as "substitutes" just playing house with other people's kids.

And if I am playing the martyr then so be it. :-)

I'm hormonal and back is aching and my shoes are too tight.

Please note this is not an attack on you OP.

Answer 13

It would be great if we could have a respectful exchange of ideas and a civil discussion, even if there is disagreement.  But I think that ground rules would need to be established: like people agreeing to avoid terminology or statements that is perceived as inflammatory and insulting to others.

For example: referring to international adoption as "buying" children.

That one kinda irks me, ya know.  My children weren't bought or stolen.  They weren't trafficked.  They weren't "charity cases" or the latest "accessory".

I think in order for a "truce" to work, there needs to be a level of respect in the discourse, even if there is disagreement.  

I'd be willing to do my part.  

ETA: Oh, I agree.  It comes at everyone from all sides.  I'm just illustrating the point that tends to come my way; speaking from my own perspective and through my own lens.

ETA2: Wow.  8 Thumbs down.  It's nice to know that while attacking adoptees is being condemned on the forum, attacking international adoptive parents is still "okay".  

So much for the truce.  I appreciate the effort, though.

Answer 14

I am going to go and get my waders on as it's going to get deep here in a minute.

I do agree to dissagree.  Their will never be a truce in this forum as there are many people with many opinions and (some) insist they are right.  Thumbing down people because they are not liked - attacking whoever - and belittling others.

Why can't we just get along...?  We are still at war, right???????

Answer 15

I doubt it.

You seem to have some entrenched extremists who demand that all dialog reflect their point of view.

It's sad but these are hurt little girls who aren't going to get themselves together unless they seek help.

Answer 16

I agree to truces across the board on Y!A, not just adoption.

We can have similar situations that end up being vastly different experiences for each of us. (in all areas)

Having been a worker involved (not directly with the process but the children and families) who have gone through adoption due to parents losing their parental rights and the child being in "state custody"; I have seen multiple situations that have gone smoothly and ones that have not. I have experienced siblings whom have a vastly different view on their adoptions. There is no sure fire solution to how all children are raised, and by whom.

All we are is a sum of our experiences. It is up to us to decide how to interpret them and how to integrate them into our view points.

Answer 17

I don't think it is possible, it has been tried before and it always flares up again.

But it's a nice thought. Good luck with it.

I just try and answer questions  I feel I can help on, and don't let the thumbs down bother me.

Answer 18

zuko,

i hear you! But it is the attuitde i'm always right and you are always wrong that keeps this going. like i have stated before, the very ones who feel no problem with adoption are the same ones that hurl insults. but wait if one of the "angry adoptees" says something hurtful, then these adoptees get all up in harms and accuse them of being mean.

hello "happy adoptees" what do you think you are doing when call people "nutballs", whiners or that they have low self-esteem. Or what about you making fun of them for having relationships with their birth families or wanting adoption reforms?! What about that? How can you accuse others on here of being hurtful and angry, when you do the same thing back. we all want respect, but it goes both ways. I have seen no respect on this board for several days!

Look at Suzy Sunshine's comment below. excatly my point. if she is so contended with herself and her adoption. then why insult others. people like her i don't get. I mean she seems to think that in order for adoptees to be happy we all must hate our b-moms. we must not want any reforms in adoption! Watch she posts here calling people angry or nutballs, but yet if one of them says something back she gets all angry. why is it okay for her to hurl insults. pot called kettle black.

Answer 19

Zuko I hear you.

I'm usually all for diplomacy but I think in general nmoms and some adoptees are tired of playing nicey nicey because it gets them nowhere especially when you have the gov't and people in this world that will walk over them just to satisfy their personal agendas and want to shut them up. This is what they've been doing for years. Keep them quite.

I think when it comes to adoption reform diplomacy needs to take a backseat. They need to speak out and play hard ball with the people and organisations that are violating or supressing them. The vicious cycle will continue unless they as well as human rights organisations and a large portion of society stand up to the atrocities happening.  Some people just don't want to listen because they already have their preconceived notion of how beautiful adoption is all around and really don't give a second thought as to whom or how it affects anyone else.

There are few on here that get it, a few that are getting it, and there are a few that are pretending to get it.  

I'm leaving to Guate in a few days, should I tell the nmothers going from ophanges to govt building to safehouses? looking for their kidnapped babies and asking me for help, to be diplomatic. How about being diplomatic with the paps there playing with children acting like these women aren't "real mothers". They are just getting paid by the anti-adoption people to make it look bad.   I'm sorry but I can't be quiet and diplomatic when I see abuse or ignorance going on.    

Could you ever imagine having your child kidnapped and the 2 years later not recognizing her as she's playing with a woman ready to take the child out of the country as fast as possible. Diplomacy is the last thing on my mind.

  

Answer 20

Dear Zuko,

I agree whole-heartedly! I have wondered often in my answers why we can't just "agree to disagree" about somethings and focus our energies on the issues we all agree need attention.

I'm not sure where all the competition, possessiveness and downright rudeness comes from. (My Mother would be livid if she ever caught me behaving like some of the folks on here or treating people with such disrespect!) As much as I dislike "blocking" it is easier for me to simply block offensive people until they calm down. I don't generally bother to answer their nasty Qs because they aren't worth my time. I'll will gladly give a response to a legitimate Q where someone wants to share, discuss or learn, but the ones which are clearly meant to be cruel, hurtful, negative or exhibit real close-mindedness are not doing anything to benefit anyone.

I realize how emotional this subject is for so many people, including myself, but I think we can all agree that the arguing about people's experiences or validity of feelings and other personal view points and non-variables is a waste of time and energy. It is a shame when something like respect for other living things is at such a premium that we cannot even manage to have a civil discussion about the real issues.

I want so much for changes to happen. Reform is imperative if we want adoption to regain its dignity for our children and protect future families from being separated unnecessarily. This is why I will continue to gently express my feelings, share my story and communicate with others to help find answers for the problems despite the "pot-stirrers", "darkly colored kettles" and "stone throwing sinners". I am through being silent and  an doing what I can to educate, encourage others to realize that ALL situations are unique, fight for equal rights, discuss ideas, etc. in order to usher in a better world for my children and my children's children.

Answer 21

Common courtesy, would be nice. We may never agree, or know the loss of a adoptee, the regret of a first mom/dad and their extended family. But what we can agree on is respect for the opinions of others, whether we agree with them or not. Allow this forum to be a resource for first mom's, PAP, adoptee's, extended family members, foster parents and AP.

We need to ask ourselves, after all the thumbs down or thumbs up, the name calling, all the mean and hateful comments, have we solved anything or helped anyone make a sound decision?

The most important question is, are the children still suffering?

My opinion is useless and I should keep it to myself, if I am not contributing in some way, to needs of over a half a million children that are currently in the system.

What we need to do, including myself, is to stop the name calling and invest some time in these children.

I have adopted three children, but so what, other children need a mentor, a friend or someone to make them feel special, channel all that passion into the kids.