Chinese medicince,acupuncture and herbs etc???

Question

Do you believe in them?has it helped you?i went there to help me and my partner as we have been trying for a baby and no luck,they wanted like £300 for six week course?are they just taking money of us for nothin??

Answer 1

I had a pneumothorax many years ago, as a consequence for nearly two decades I had problems breathing; my lung capacity was just getting less and less.  My doc gave me an inhaler which helped for a few hours, before all was back to normal.  I went to the Chinese place out of desperation, like you do, within a week of taking the herbs he prescribed me I bought him a big bottle of whisky to say thanks.  I had full lung capacity within a month, for the first time in decades.  Give them a try, you really have nothing to lose.  However, there are many places that dispence this wonderful medicine, so look around, you'll almost certainly get it cheaper than £300.  Best of luck with your baby making.

Answer 2

Traditional Chinese Medicine includes things  like herbs, acupuncture and qi gong

It has been practiced for a few thousand years, and is based on pre-scientific ideas.   Nobody has ever shown the prescence of a life force (qi) meridians or chakra points.  Even if you assume they exist...there is no evidence that acupuncture does anything beyond activating the bodies placebo response, for which there is a sound scientific explanation and evidence.

There are over 60,000 documented herbal preparations, some dating back to 300 BCE.  While some herbs do have medicinal properties, there is again no evidence that Chinese herbs do any of the more grandiose things that are claimed of them, and certainly not superior to modern medications derived from herbs.   Also, there is no consistency with herbs in different Asian traditions...Korean herbal potions differ from Taiwanese etc.

You have wasted your money, I'm afraid.

EDIT:  Alex claims "a large amount of what Skepdoc said is false"  I would like him to tell me what exactly is false?  Everything I stated is completly factual.  If he thinks otherwise, lets see some specifics, and I will be happy to provide unbiased references.

I come to this board to offer some common sense, science and evidence to counter the uneducated opinions of self described "healers" who offer testimonials for what amounts to mostly quack, and completely unproven claims

I also don't get into personal attacks or name calling.

Answer 3

Acupuncture involves the stimulation of points on the body, generally by insertion of extremely thin metal needles. Herbs may be used to supplement the treatment. The science is still out on herbs as they are medicine, and different people respond differently, and the dosage and purity are generally not standardized via a government body oversight. For acupuncture, there is some good evidence showing benefit for lower back pain and symptom reduction for fibromylagia. But I am not familiar with any positive results for fertility in clinical studies. Still, it may help reduce stress, which is generally a good outcome and may help with getting pregnant. Here are some people's stories about getting acupuncture, and their advice: http://www.healthangle.com/procedures/ac...

Good luck.

Answer 4

It really depends greatly on the quality of the practicioner.

I'm lucky to know some of the best people alive, so I have a slightly different perspective on the whole matter.

In my opinion, about 90% of medical conditions I have come across can be treated with chinese medicine, but a large amount of them require the chinese doctor to be extremely skilled to fix.  Once that gets cut out, chinese medicine is only effective for about 40% of problems which come up.

Fortunately, fertility falls into that category, and I know that Chinese medicine can help a lot there, provided you have found a decent chinese doctor.

Unfortunately, I have absolutely no idea if the specific person you encountered is competent or not.  The best school in england at this point in time is the college of integrated chinese medicine (http://www.acupuncturecollege.org.uk/) and if you get someone from there, odds are you're set.

Fertility problems can be caused by a lot of things, primarily all the toxins in our environment now and I think a good treatment program has to address that fact, but I know a lot of people who have gone about the chinese medicine approach as well.

I hope that helps, if you would like further information or an explanation of exactly how chinese medicine works etc, I'd be happy to provide it.

P.S. skepdoc's job is to attack all alternative therapies on here.  A large ammount of what he stated was false, so try not to take it too seriously!

EDIT (please do not read this unless you want a reply to what skepdoc said)

“is based on pre-scientific ideas.”  While it’s hard for me to prove how and why this is false, stating it has no purpose other than to slander the practice with an emotional attack (in the same vein calling someone who opposes torture un-American).

“Nobody has ever shown the prescence of a life force (qi) meridians or chakra points.”

Chrakra’s are not in points and belong to a completely different system from what is being discussed (again an irrelevant association).  The amount of proof on the meridian points vary (depending on what evidence you will choose to ignore), but they have definitely been shown to have different electric potentials from the rest of the body.  A similar paradigm exists for chi.  Most cultures outside of the west (which was colored by Christianity which associated things like chi with satan), have come to the conclusion energy exists and found uses for it.  Additionally, I know thousands of people who work with it, have the ability to perceive it, and actively either see or allow things to occur with it which could not occur spontaneously.  Not to mention, I also know specific departments in 2 elite schools that work with it for social interactions.  Lastly, there is tons of evidence it exists which has come out of China, but most has also been ignored.  At the end of the day, what does the statement there is no evidence/no one has ever shown ___ mean?  The way this definition is framed all it actually means is “no studies have been conducted which the AMA deemed satisfactory to publish.”  That doesn’t actually have a strong correlation with truth.  Although it is not the best example, the Princeton engineering Anomalies Research program spent 10 years collecting data irrefutably showing consciousness could affect machines (something considered completely impossible and laughable by mainstream science).  At the end of the day, although the proof collected was flawless by every standard of evidence, it just was ignored since it challenged the bias the scientists have.  Since a study with chi has not been done for years at a department devoted to it in an ivy league school, I think this one serves as a better example for the point.

“is no evidence that acupuncture does anything beyond activating the bodies placebo response”

Not according to the WHO.  Look it up.

“there is again no evidence that Chinese herbs do any of the more grandiose things that are claimed of them”

I’m not sure what you mean by grandiose (again it seemed like an arbitrary slander).  The primary difference between Chinese herbs and western ones is that they are based on a completely different diagnostic system which is mean to shift the physiology or energy of the body in one direction (ie warm it up if it seems to cold) instead of focusing on one specific mechanism occurring (which in essence is a fallacy modern drugs take since they assume only one process ever occurs with a drug).  Once again the proof question is raised.  What constitutes it?  Hospitals prescribing the herbs and seeing consistent results, small studies showing this herb or that herb works, or understanding the system of Chinese thought and the way the method progresses, and then treating people?

“certainly not superior to modern medications derived from herbs”

This is actually false.  Go read up on what medications based on extracting and concentrating the active chemical ingredient from an herb often lead to health consequences and a lesser overall effect.

“Also, there is no consistency with herbs in different Asian traditions...Korean herbal potions differ from Taiwanese etc.”

Potions doesn’t seem very fair to use.  Since when did Chinese herbalists put on wizard hats and start saying they will turn you into a toad?  The other herbal traditions also have nothing to do with Chinese Herbs, why are you mentioning this?  Many allopathic techniques and research methods were pioneered in n**i death camps.  Does that mean I can extrapolate it to modern medicine?

“common sense”

Well I’d argue plenty of what you said goes against common sense, but how on earth do we go about proving that.  We each have our baises which we view as self evident truth.

“uneducated opinions”

You’ve shown you never took the time to learn or understand the system (regardless of if it is based on ridiculous notions).  Therefore, aren’t you giving an uneducated opinion?

“I also don't get into personal attacks or name calling.”    Ã¢Â€Âœquack”  These two statements contradict.

“There is no such thing as "alternative medicine"....there is either good quality evidence that it works and has a rational explanation in which case it will become mainstream.....or there are unproven and implausible treatments.”

So first off, this statement says if a treatment works then a good mechanism to explain it exists.  I completely disagree with that line of reasoning and believe it borders on religious.  If you assume allopathy is perfect and all knowing (a falsehood which many doctors belive), then that statement is valid.  However if the profession is not omniscient then things will occur which cannot be explained.  However, there tends to be a bias by scientists to simply ignore things that they cannot explain since it challenges the flawlessness of their faith.

Second, I know of plenty of treatments which work by the described criteria but are not practiced in the US.  Take a look into Cuba’s work with ozone.  Tons of evidence for it, used in all their hospitals, but in the US is “quackery” and not practiced (since it challenges the financial interests of a lot of practices).  There are many other examples of this as well.  Your statement essentially says “if allopathy does not awknowledge something works by it’s own critera of proof, then it is worthless garbage.”  I also think statement is false unless you ascribe omniscience to science, and in flat contradiction with historical example.  It’s a very nice sounding emotional soundbite though!

So to make a long story short, you are zealously committed to your viewpoints and there is almost nothing I can say to change how you feel.  A full proper explanation like this takes over 10 times as long as it does for you to write it (since each fallacy must be explained), and will just be brushed off.  Hence I take the postion of “Skepdoc is biased, try to not take him too seriously.”  Alternatively I could do what I just did here as per your request, but I sincerely think it is a waste of time.  Hope you appreciate this!

Answer 5

TCM works. No doubt. It is real, herbs and acupuncture are effective.

There are TONS of bogus practitioners, I would never give that kind of money all at once, and certainly not without a very strong recommendation from many people.

And, just because TCM is a great, holistic alternative to Western medicine does not mean that it will cause you to conceive. You may not Genvieve no matter what you do. That is a reality you have got to face. But a good TCM practitioner is worth a shot.

Answer 6

I can't answer that.

However looking at some of the answers I feel I should speak up.

This notion that if something works it is provable and becomes absorbed into mainstream practise is just not true.

There are many methods of treatment practised in alt-med which are effective but the evidence base is not to the allopaths liking so it is not taken on board.

Using the reductionist model of research it is possible to design experiments to prove or disprove almost anything.

Big pharma has enourmous resources and power. These companies are so powerful they can shape government policy in countries as powerfull s the USA. imagine what they can do in countries less powerful than the US?

Treatment protocols have been tested which seriously threaten the position of big Pharma. Big pharma's response is to conduct their own research in their own labs which contradicts the data released.

Drug testing is not independent by virtue of the fact that the companies that spent millions developing drugs also trial them and release the results.

Research into alt-med is often poor because it is badly funded and badly organised. Organisations which have the money to fund this kind of research properly usually have a vested interest in these treatments being proved ineffective. Guess what?

when they fund and control  the research the methods are ineffective!

Another major stumbling block is the supposedly 'Scientific' reductionist model trying to prove 1 single thing controls everything in the whole cascade.

I'd like to think things are a little less simplistic then that.

Alt-med tends to follow the line that illness and disease is multifactorial. Allopaths are starting to come round to this idea. How can a multifactorial system prove anything to someone with a reductionist approach? Anything that doesn't fit in with their narrow view of the world is dismissed as quackery and unscientific.

I think we need to find a new scientific model rather than continue to use one that has more holes in it than swiss cheese!

How about pharma, herbal remedy manufacturers, providers of equipment to healthcare etc. all put money into a central independent pot and all research is done by that body?

It would actually be independent if that was the case.  They could decide which testing model to use as well.

I would like to add there is a blogger on this page that i have mailed several times asking him to provide evidence to support his assertions and he has so far failed to do so.

He hasn't even bothered to reply.

I guess this is another example of Alex's comment that as soon as something comes up which contradicts the view point of this particular church, it gets conveniently ignored.

Answer 7

okay i'm going to try to keep it sweet and simple .

yes i do believe in chinese medicine and not just because i'm chinese but because my mom has been using them on me since i can remember.

an instance where it has helped me is when its that time of the month and i have really bad cramps my mom will just press certain points on my body my "chakra" points. i dunno if thats true but i do know that after like about 10 minutes of her rubbing certain areas that pain goes away.

another example is when i had a really bad sprain. i went to the doctors first and they told me to wear a brace for 4 weeks. when i got home my mom set me down on the couch and started putting a warm cloth on my foot to loosen the muscle. usually people would put ice on it but my mom said heat helps to relax the muscles. then she grabbed this chinese medicine which smells horrible and she began rubbing my foot. i was healed in 2 days! no crutches and no brace. i could wear flip flops again!!

i think my mom had to go somewhere to do fertility when she had my oldest brother. well it had to be good cause she had 3 children.

i wouldnt know about them doing it as a scam but you just have to check and ask people. i've had chinese medicine work on me but it really does depend on the person working on you. so be sure you pick someone good cause otherwise it would be a scam.

i have a feeling that they are going to make you drink certain herbal teas which may taste horrible but its probably going to clean out your body and help re-energize you.

i know what i have said sounds crazy that these things actually work but i'm talking from experience not like that person who first put it. sure his answer is factual but wheres his evidence?