Date rape - no means no?

Question

What do you think of these comments from Helen Mirren? -http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/cri...

My first thoughts when I began to read the article was 'what the h**l is this woman on?' But, as I continued to read, the column raised some interesting points - it seems to suggest some 'grey areas'.

What are your thoughts?

For the record, I'm still in firmly in the 'no means no' camp.

Answer 1

I think Mirren is a bit of a plank, what was the point in making this public after all these years?

No does mean no, right up to the point of penetration. If that pisses a guy off then he should find someone else to have s*x with.

Answer 2

It's frustrating that the independent site is down at the moment. A short copy and pate of her comments in your question would help.

I've read her comments elsewhere and I think she has been misreported. She said that "in those days" women couldn't expect to be taken seriously in court if they complained about date rape. Times have changed.

My opinion on alcohol fuelled sexual encounters is that if the woman is too drunk to give consent and the man is too drunk to know if she's given consent or not then it is "misadventure" and not rape.

Answer 3

As an apparent "Victim" of what she's talking about she should know better. No is NO - not - oh go on then now we've got this far.

Totally ridiculous, and quite offensive I think.

Answer 4

I would always agree that NO means exactly that.  However, should that mean that a woman can take NO responsibility for her own actions either? It does seem rather unfair that a woman gets herself into a drunken/drugged state, gets together with a guy who may be in a similar condition and expect him to maintain a level of control that she was unable to manage for herself.

If women don't want to land up in such dangerous situations then they need to remember that when they go out, either you're having a "girlie" night out and you're all looking out for each other, or you're out to get laid and take the necessary precautions and avoid getting too drunk to lose control of things.

I make no excuse for guys that commit rape and I do believe a woman has the right to say no/stop at any point.  I also firmly believe that a man who delibrately gets a woman drugged/drunk is a slimeball who deserves whatever the law throws at him.  However, there have been high profile cases in recent years of men being set up with false claims, and I would like to see men getting the same right to privacy in terms being identified prior to any conviction as women have.

Answer 5

I am with you on that, but we ladies know how easily men get the wrong message, in any area, regardless.

Ever thought god I have to draw it for you to get it?Now you are with me, so can we please don't give them room to misunderstand and miss read the signals, in other words let's take some action to prevent getting us in grey areas....

Answer 6

There is a point at which the woman has no right to say no. When your in and about to explode she can no longer say no. Its time women learned their place again.

Answer 7

I disagree with the 'Silly old woman' views bieng put across here.

Helen has brought up a contentious issue, and I am inclined to agree with her. If there is a person brave enough to tell this to a rape 'victims' face, I'd put my money of her.

There is a grey area with rape, no-one can deny that some women use it as a tool to attack a completely innocent man. I understand this more than some and know that police adn CPS take rape cases lightly-whatever spin is put in public.

PS 'victim' is written thus as I find the term bloody offensive and patronising!

Answer 8

Like most law it relies on evidence.

The real problem with date rape is it often boils down to one persons word against anothers with no independent or reliable evidence.

A famous quote is "rape is the easiest to allege and the hardest to disprove" so caution is required as well.

That is the very reason that rape within marriage can only be charged in very specific circumstances such as the marriage is over and they are sperated or the husband lets someone else rape his wife.  If the marriage is to all appearances normal rape cannot be charged.

Common sense or a happy lovemaking could easily be called rape!

It is also made more difficult by the very unfairness of men being named immediately but the accuser remaining anonymous even if the report is proved false!!  The police and legal services also have a heavy bias towards the woman having to ignore evidence to the contrary in initial investigation!

Thus juries are loath to convict unless there is a lot of very compelling evidence!!

The only answer is to make a level playing field and give men anonymity unless convicted.  Make the investigation and prosecution to be much fairer and visibly so.  Also women who falsely cry rape are rarely imprisoned for an allegation that ruins permanently a mans life and for which he would have got a substantial prison sentence so the false allegation should result in the same sentence for the false accuser!!

Then juries might start convicting more.

I am totally against rape and think a root and branch change in the investigation, legal practice and laws needs to be undetaken!!

Answer 9

It's tricky.

Does that mean taking all your clothes off, doing the deed then saying no at the last minute?

Answer 10

Basically, there are a lot of cases where a guy rejects a girl, or does his thing inside her when she tells him to pull out (really nasty, but not exactly clear-cut rape).. girls who get into trouble for knobbing a guy then tells her parents it was rape just to get outta trouble.. there are so many cases when the man is innocent, that we need to prepare for the eventuality that a lot of men are in fact innocent.

So I say hang em high, if there is undisputed evidence that it was clear cut rape, but soften the sentencing when the evidence is muggy.

Also, rape is rape, but there is a big difference btw a man breaking into your home and beating you up and raping you.. and a guy who is already naked in bed with you slipping it in after you said you werent really sure this was a good idea.. kind of..

Answer 11

If all men and all women approached s*x as rationally as they should approach finance (and they often aren't rational about that, either) then no would always mean no, yes would often come a lot earlier than it sometimes does and we'd all be spared a lot of trouble.

The problem is that no doesn't always mean no, in this as in other areas. Yes doesn't always mean yes, either. Confused feelings, guilt, avoidance of responsibility, a wish to please the partner (and a lot more) can all muddy the water. Some people do perform out of a wish to oblige. Some play hard to get. And so on.

The demand, on both sides of the sexual divide, that one party's account should always be privileged over the other is bound to lead to injustice. My own feeling is that both sexes should learn to take care of themselves, take responsibility for their own actions, and avoid sexual encounters when drunk or drugged to the point where they might later regret what happened.

It would save us all a lot of litigation, and the people most involved a lot of misery.

Answer 12

your link doesnt work so i dont know what she said why dont you tell us? anyway people get too pissy about what celebrities say, like who tf cares? its not like they govern anyones behaviour, hopefully, if they do, youre stupid.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/cri...

ok i read it, again, who cares what she says? shes a little old lady with old fashioned views, WHO CARES? it happened to her and she thinks people should suck up like they did in her day. like every grandparent on this earth. not necessarily about rape but they wouldnt condone getting into that position in the first place. or the fact that they had no food in the war blah blah

Answer 13

coke i heard...well, she used to be.

Anyway, I agree with you..

Helen always was a strange one..you've only got to watch the fantastic 'Cook the thief the wife and her lover' to see that

Answer 14

I firmly believe that a woman shouldn`t put herself in a situation that she is not in control of.

If you`ve been out with a bloke who asks you `back to his place for coffee` unless you fancy him enough to have s*x with him then don`t go. As for girls getting blotto at the w/e and then raped, I think they`ve contributed to the situation they find  themselves in and don`t have any sympathy.

Don`t get me wrong if you get attacked down a dark alley by some vicious animal he should be hung drawn and quartered but what Helen means is a different thing and I`m inclined to agree with her. Don`t forget though a lot of women are also`raped` every night by husbands and b/f`s.

Answer 15

After a man spends money on her, the woman owes him. End of story.

Answer 16

That link is not working.....

No means "NO" I  agree...

Answer 17

forget the date part - it is still rape

being on a 'date' or being romantically involved with a man does not give him permission to have s*x

no should mean no

i must have been lucky as i never once met a man who was so disrespectful that he put his wants over my right to say no

no matter how frustrating it must be

and i feel sorry for the poster who says once a man has spent money on a woman he owns her .......i think he is talking prostitution here and not 'dates'

Answer 18

I wonder if she'd be happy to repeat that in front of a rape victim

date rape or other

Stupid old woman should learn to keep her tongue in her mouth

no means no

no exceptions

Answer 19

I remember when no meant yes.

Answer 20

i agree with helen

although in theory i agree that no means no, there is a world of difference between the classic idea of rape where a woman is forced to have s*x with the use of brute force and the idea of date rape where a woman perhaps gets herself into a situation through drinking too much and feels pressurised to go through with the final act.

if that person willingly engages in sexual activity but then says no to intercourse surely she has to take some responsibility for putting herself in that position

note i am not saying that ignoring this is right and i would never do that myself, but this current thinking really does allow too many women to absolutely s***w men over - if a man goes out and has s*x with a woman as a casual booze soaked affair, he could be prosecuted for rape if the woman regrets it and says to the police she did not want it to go that far

and i dare say that that would potentially leave a lot of men open to rape allegations - ie anyone who has ever had a drunken one night stand

Answer 21

Would agree with you.

Sometimes I think that Ms Mirren lives in a world of her own.

Answer 22

She's obviously been out of her own limelight for too long to have brought this up and the drug thing too! No means NO! There is no excuse for anything beyond that. As for 'Dame' Mirren, well, she should either keep quiet about her past or risk losing our respect - she's lost mine by bleating.

Answer 23

I think that what Dame Helen is saying is that a woman is being a fool if she allows herself to get into such a situation - it is like leaving £1000 on the sideboard with the front door wide open overlooking a busy street and then complaining if it gets pinched.

Yes of course it is still a crime, and ignoring a woman who says "no" on the grounds that she did not mean it is no defence.  However, being led on and teased is a mitigating circumstance, and this should be considered when passing sentence.

Dame Helen is right I think to say that a woman who lays herself open to a man in this way without thinking through the likely consequences should wisely put the encounter down to experience and move on.

Although I did actually work with her during the time she referred to, I was too young for her sadly.