Democracies at war?.?

Question

It is often said Democratic countries do not go to war with each other".

But are not Russia and Georgia both democracies of sorts?.

Answer 1

I have to take exception to Bugaboo's view that the war in Georgia was as a result of the West interfering. Surely this war was caused by Russia sending arms and "peacekeepers" to South Ossetia over the last few months and their encouragement of the South Ossetians to goad Georgia into military action. Once Georgia had retaliated it took only a few hours for the official Russian forces to cross over from Russia and give the Georgians a good kicking whilst pretending to be the good guys.

Russia may have not liked the fact that the West supported the independence of Kosova earlier this year or that Georgia is considering joining Nato but that doesn't give them the right to act like school bullies.

Answer 2

While it may be the case that Georgia is a fledgling democracy, I cannot say the same of Russia.  From the end of the Communist era in Europe, I am of the impression that the Russians have made every effort to remain what they always were, undemocratic.

If you just look briefly at the history of UK, you quickly understand what is meant by the word 'democracy'.  I mean it's never perfect and there's always room for improvement.  However, starting with Magna Carta, trial by jury etc and a House of Commons, you can see that over time the British created a 'democracy' of sorts and one which works well.

The Russians from my perspective have never really shown any serious interest in 'democracy'.  It does not have a free press.  What it does have however is a parliament full of Communists, for the most part, or so it seems to me.

Georgia on the other hand had done a lot to built up a democracy.  The people of Georgia are an Homeric folk and their ancient [Land of the Golden Fleece] connections with all things Greek, has greatly inspired and helped them.

Russia on the other hand, historically, sees itself as some sort of Eastern Roman Empire wherein democracy is unknown or at least suppressed.

For a democracy to thrive it must have an independent judiciary, a free press, free elections and a great deal many other 'free' things, demonstrations, strikes and other annoying and downright freedom loving activities.

None of the above seems ever to happen in Russia.

When did Russian workers last come out on strike and march through Red Square demanding  a 5% pay rise?

Never and it is never going to happen becuse such a demonstration would be ruthlessly supressed.

Here in UK such a demonstration would be seen as part of the people's right to strike, hold ballots, demonstrations and all the rest of that annoying muddle which we call democracy.

No.  Russia is not a democracy.  It is populated by people who want a powerful Tsar and they've got one in Putin.

Answer 3

Ah, that wasn't war, it was the continuation of diplomacy by other means.

Answer 4

If that is often said it must be by people who really do not read history much.  One of few democracies in the world is Switzerland but even they are more a republic and the main reason they don't go to war is the military is very good and fighting them would have little benefit as no resources exist in the country and they are neutral so don't get drug into wars; the reward is not worth the cost.  The birthplace of democracy is considered ancient Athens and the history of Athens is full or war and conquest.  Democracies and other "free forms of government" go to war as often as everyone is probably because for all the talk about wars being started by government the truth is people have fought wars or each other from the start going back to tribal warfare; part of human nature that carries over to government and not something caused by government.  Governments just allow the wars to be larger and better organized like the professional sports teams are better then sand lot teams.  Russia is a democracy of sorts but actually has much of the same problem as Iraq; the people do not understand democracy or freedom as they have had little in their history.  The US had the same problems at the start, people offered Washington the "crown" and wanted to make King of the US and his decision to turn it down plus starting the tradition, now part of the law, to restrict himself to two terms in office forced the US citizens into acting and thinking about the democracy (actually Republic) they had started.  Georgia had the same growing problem from 1991 to the "Rose Revoluton" and is further down the road athen the Russians.  Russia is very much in danger of taking a step back to a dictatorship and Putin is actually still a major power because he played with the Constitution to ensure he would be after hand picking his successor.  The main problem is the average Russian is not used to deciding on who and how the country is run-they had a Czar then they had the communist and neither was freely elected or gave much option to the people as far as what they did or did not do.

Answer 5

Was not Hitler selected in democratic Germany?

The same may be with Georgia.

Though there were also pressure from US to select its president.

And it was the US behind all of the actions of Georgia that manipulate georgian president and georigan mass-media.

Answer 6

No

Russia is as far removed from the democratic principles as it has ever been. It is a dictatorship under the leadership of Vladimir Putin, who has maintained his power even though he is technically no longer in office, and has put a puppet in his place as a token leader.

I do not know much about Georgian politics, but it seems to me that if they are being considered for EU/ Nato membership, they must be moving in the right direction. Not that I claim that these are perfect unions or organisations, but they do serve to protect the notion of democracy (of sorts!).

Russia is worried by the USA moving ever closer to it's borders, as it fears that one day there will necessarily be a final world war, and it does not want the Yanks having weapons strategically placed along it's borders. It's long border with China is still safe, but look at how they threaten the Ukraine and Poland every time they try to forge closer links with the USA in terms of defence of their countries.

A sovereign nation should be free to form any international partnerships it wishes to, and if the Polish welcome US missiles to their land it is their business, likewise if the Georgians wish to form alliances with the west. The Russians are merely using strong arm bully boy tactics to apply pressure.

Anyway, am getting carried away now, because I think the world has a lot to fear from the Russians. Look at Alexander Litvinyenko- no-one is safe from the red assassins when they decide your number is up.

All the best...

Answer 7

I wouldn't call Georgia an example of democracy, but compared to Russia it is perhaps better.

Russia on the other hand did participate, committed and orchestrated multiple acts of genocide all over Caucasus region since 1991.

Half of those was done by "democratic" Russian government, i.e. Eltsyn, the rest was done by commie government ala ex-KGB Putin.

Medvedev today is just a puppet in Putin's hands. President that gets an order on public conference from his PM to start investigation of nonexistent genocide (to justify Russian aggression) and can't even fulfill the treaty he signed without his military correcting him isn't really a president.

Worth mentioning that comrade Putin did push several laws (5 or 7 don't know for sure) limiting freedom of speech.

Basically anything negative you say in media can (and will) be used to jail you, alternatively causing more troubles to the publisher or broadcaster.

That and in case you run multi-billion business you might also end up in jail while your company will be confiscated.

What can you do, commies are very used to confiscations and people don't change from commies into dems overnight.

To Garish - While at it, you could also mention that Russia financed, armed and militarily supported S.O. separatists since 1989. All in violation of the peace treaty they themselves brokered and pretty much forced Georgia to sign it.

While US is supporting independent, legitimate country, your "Mother Russia" was arming illegal paramilitaries in sovereign country. And when those paramilitaries were at risk of having their butts kicked by Georgian army, Russia intervened militarily every time, which is the sole reason S.O. separatists lasted so long and have success today.

You could also mention that financial support given to S.O with its 30,000 remaining population is over 1bln USD annually. That's more than US provided to Georgia which is 4.8 mln.

Let alone the fact that US never supplied Tanks and artillery to Georgian army, and US so far never fought on Georgian side.

And let's not forget, Russia supported S.O. in ethnic cleansing of Georgians,officially declared by S.O. president Kokoiti, who didn't even have enough brains not to admit that openly.

Or you don't know how few days ago Kokoiti officially declared that S.O. forces completed demolition of Georgian villages and they wont' let Georgian refugees  to come back?

Perhaps you don't know that's called ethnic cleansing?

So, why so upset with US?

Answer 8

I still have a hard time calling Russia a Democracy.

Answer 9

The Georgia fiasco was orchestrated by the west.. Looks more like rekindling of older adversaries..

Answer 10

First off, Steven W who said democracies don’t go to war with each other? The American civil war, two sides of one great democracy fought a bloody war, the North trying to prevent the secession of the Southern States and the South trying to secede from what it saw as a tyrannical and overpowering North. (It didn’t start over slavery. Slavery was never a real issue- it was taxation at issue and slavery was seen by the North in general and Lincoln in particular as ‘taking the moral high ground’.)

The Greek wars, fought between the city states of the original democracy, Greece.

The Anglo American War 1812-1815.

The first world war between France, Belgium, Great Britain, the USA, et. al. vs. Germany, a democracy at the time.

Plus there are many more.

It may be disputed as to whether some of these countries were truly democratic, but what country ever has been truly democratic? To accept the freedoms of democracy we must accept the restrictions inherent in the system that protects the system. If we do not accept these restrictions, we leave a real possibility for dictatorship- as in 1930’s Germany. Then arguably the more democratic we become, the more restrictions we must have in place to defend that freedom. Where, then, do these restrictions result in a democracy becoming a dictatorship?

Clive H has mentioned the UK (I live in the UK) as an example of democracy, with its faults, also inherent in a democratic system. But I say that democracy is an invention of the rich and powerful classes to fool the less fortunate into a sense of security and fair play. Karl Marx famously said ‘Religion is the opium of the people.’

I doubt I will get equal notoriety by saying ‘Democracy is the opium of the people’.

But I digress. To answer your question, though it is not a definitive answer and many will disagree, since such questions provoke opinion rather than fact as an answer. Democratic countries do go to war with each other. Russia and Georgia are democracies of sorts. Just as the UK is a democracy of sorts. Yet I still cannot avoid the CCTV cameras watching me that have been proven not to reduce crime, merely re-locate it. British Nationals are still at risk of detention at the whim of the government without trial or evidence.

I rest my (imperfect) case.

Answer 11

Russia is a semi-democratic state; there are political parties, some of which criticise the regime, and an elected Duma which represents these parties, but the degree to which the Duma reflects accurately public opinion, and the degree to which the Duma can call the Executive and the President to account, and the level of freedom of press, speech, and assembly in Russia can be called into question.

Georgia is on a similar footing, though the Premier there seeks closer relations to the EU which would prompt moves towards full democracy - but its internal problems (say, South Ossetia and Abkhazia), its closeness to Russia and remoteness from the EU, its general poverty, and its historical unfamiliarity to democracy r****d this development.

Answer 12

The usual comment is:

"No two functional democracies have ever been to war."

To be a democracy you need:

to have experienced several cycles of elections with a clean hand over of power

a free press, and freedom of assembly

respect for minority rights (i.e. legislation against "the tyranny of the masses")

an independent judiciary

and an active citizenry who are personally commited to democracy.

This is why Hamas in Palestine, Putin's Russia, and Mugabe's Zimbabwe don't count as Democratic countries or political groups despite the fact that some kind of voting process appears to have taken place.

And to those who doubt this principle, I challenge you to give me one example that contradicts this, and by the way, Germany was not a "functional democracy" at the start of WW2, and any claim to the contrary is utter bigotry/ignorance. None of the freedoms above were available and 4 million Germans spoiled their ballot papers in protest at the fixing of their local election results.