Do gender non-conforming people even count in the debate?

Question

There is so much ranting going on (in this forum and elsewhere) about men vs. women that I wonder if anyone is even considering that some people don't fit into those binaries.

What do feminists and anti-femmes think of gender non-conformists? Are you considering them in the debate? If so, how so? If not, why not? Is anyone here a gender non-conforming person? How do you feel about this? Does anyone know a gender non-conforming person? How do you think they would feel about this issue? What does everyone think about their erasure in this debate? How does this affect notions of rights and gendered issues? Does everyone even know what a gender non-conforming person is?

Discuss. You will be graded on grammar.... jk.

Answer 1

The number of people not in either category is comparitively small. To worry about this in the big picture is like setting up a political party for conjoined twins.

Transexuality (or really hormonal deficiency) ends up being a medical problem in the end, despite what the psychology journals discuss. Transvestism is a fetish, carried out by people who are rarely gender confused.

Patois - For macro-biological purposes, people fall into two distinct sexes (gender is a social concept as far as I am concerned), DNA allows for no other s*x apart from any aberrations which deviate. Micro difference in humans is not a deviation from humans as a species. Even psychological differences are overrated, we share such a common culture that we overlap constantly.

Answer 2

By gender non-conforming I assume you mean androgynous. I think feminists would use them to show the "benefits" of there being no gender roles.

Answer 3

The problem is that most people only think of two genders, when in reality there are, what, ten? Hardly anyone ever learns about them unless they seek out the knowledge for themselves.

Answer 4

I am going to give a non-PC answer here: some people have mentioned that the debate is beneral, and considers two genders only: male and female, and that there are essentially feminists and non-feminists to consider.  This is a reasonable claim.  If I am making a point on behalf of my group (male, non-fem in my case), then I am unlikely to consider the needs, desores, existence or wishes of another sub-group.  Feminists are no more likely to do so either.  Then there is the debate as to whether gender-non-conformists need necessarily be considered separate from the two biological gender.

I will give you another example, not gender related to illustrate:  In Australia there was a recent apology by our Prime Minister to the Aboriginal people regarding some of the effects of what was termed "European Settlement".  There was never any mention that Chinese people were responsible for dispossessing some native Australians.  Lebanese Australians were not asked to apologise in the same way that Anglo-Europeans were and so on.  Nor was any other culture or nationality.  The claims were made against white Europeans.  The apology was issued on behalf of all Australians though, regardless of origin.  

It is the same with trans-gender and other gender non-conformist people: they need not necessarily always be mentioned in a debate specifically.  Feminists will not actively consider them.  anti-feminists will usually not either, but it does not mean that they are not able to be part of the debate.

If they have issues specific to their demographic, you should also remember that they are better equipped to bring up issues regarding themselves.

Answer 5

No i'm not sure I know what YOU mean by "gender non-conforming"...or why you mean it that way.

I mean for one thing, a modern feminist IS a gender non-conformist.

So I don't know what you mean...but i will tell you this:

when a male acts feminine, or a female masculine, it is a turn off.

Much as i celebrate how girls being brought up without the old limiting ideas about playing sports, is now producing many women sports stars -for example - still, i dont like the idea at all of a little girl being given a gi joe doll instead of barbie...or of purposely bringing the kid up gender neutral

I like a woman to be feminine.

Its whats attractive, and nice to be around. It's natural. And normal.

And the idea of a world full of gender neutral people grosses me out.

Are we all to be colorless, and kind of 'q***r'?

Frankly (and lest you think my view stems merely from 'being male') if i were given a choice, i'd have chosen to be a woman. You have the better deal. And i have NO understanding at all of wanting to be hero-worshipped for bullying (which is a full descripiton of what a man is about).

How deeply ugly. It's as if female is to nurture and empower an individual / while male is to wreck and impede the chances of others.

"If I make you lose, thats how I 'win' "  is men's single equation they run on.

They do it to each other.

They do it to heirarch.

They do it to the whole rest of the world.

Would women do better?  I dont know. I just know I have no affinity for bullying, and getting a thrill out of impeding others and making them feel bad.

I dont want to be a n**i cop. Or a murdering soldier.

So I would have chosen female if it were a choice we make.

It would better suit my nurturing, empathic and intuitive  nature.

And I'd rather be something  beautiful, than a violent ape-willing to cause vast scales of misery just for a control buzz.

But  I am heterosexual.

I just dont approve of my gender's ways.

I despise patriarchal society.

Politically, I am anarcho-feminist.

So have i  CHOSEN to be some opposite qualities of 'male', because bad  experience caused me  to oppose it?

That would seem to be the real question.

I THINK  this is the question (did i CHOSE to be this way) because your phrase "gender non CONFORMING" denotes that someone is making a CHOICE(to conform or not, to go along with what's expected or not)

Well there is plenty of evidence that people like me often  have brains that are constructed  "half and half" (so that would NOT be making a choice)

Aslo, if I am the product of environment, that also is not choice. (Kids dont CHOSE to be abused, abandoned or deprived.)

And if the right wing police state we're in, being built and inhabited by boys playing "war" and "cops&robbers"  as adults...if THAT is something I'm chosing against, if THAT is being a thing of gender is the thing I'm non-conformist of, then oh, I am!

But boys act like that because they are male apes...not because of some imposed "role". Sorry.  I rebel against nature because ideals about being "civilized" make me expect more.  But  YOU rebel against  reality.  These roles are  biologically what we are as animals.

I guess we rebel against the same thing though, eh?

Answer 6

How dare you use logic.

Answer 7

I actually think a lot about the transgender movement and how it fits into feminism. In a sense, the existence of transgendered people goes against certain types of feminism, by saying that yes, men and women think completely differently. In another sense, though, it suggests that we all conform less to gender stereotypes than we'd sometimes like to admit.

I support an individual's right to get a s*x-change operation, regardless of how that person identifies and regardless of that person's motives for it.

My closest friend is female-to-male transgendered, and he is a feminist.

Answer 8

Not only are they left out of the debate, but the debate is highly generalised as well - it is assumed all feminists are women and all anti-feminists are men, which is obviously not the case.  Personally, trans gender people, and gender rebels are for me the over-riding reason why you simply can't judge anything from a person's s*x - it takes all types of personalities to make the world go round, fitting people into boxes based on a few physical characteristics is just ridiculous - it's like having only 2 sizes of shoe and everyone has to fit into them, or else!  :-)

Answer 9

Very funny with the grade.

I personally don't pay attention (or try not too) to the rantings of the men against women debates. There will always be debates between the sexes and everyone will see it differently; because everyone in here is an individual.

We have our own thoughts on life, love and relationships that have been shaped and molded based on personal experience. The only thing you can do (or any of us for that matter) is give your own personal opinion, pray that someone will see things from your perspective (as a woman) or agree to disagree. The only problem that women and men have amongst themselves is the men and women who chose not to see others as their equal. People have a lack of respect, or a fear of being out done by the the s*x they demonstrate discontent towards. Thus, the debate rages on.

Answer 10

I'm not sure what you mean.

Edit - I guess by other answerers you are referring to people of transgender or similar. I think their insight is very valuble to the debate. To my knowledge I have never met someone who was transgender, and therefore have not heard their oppinion, but I would imagine that with gender stereotypes playing such an important role in their lives, they could discuss the issues very clearly.

Answer 11

Not only do the count, they are essential. True feminism is not about women's rights but about rights and acceptance for people of all sexualities. They are a contradiction to the idea that gender is a simple, black and white subject. Their presence goes against generalizations about what men and women are.

Answer 12

I am transgender, I know many gender non-conforming people. And yes our opinions count just as much as everyone else's

Answer 13

There is not medically any two people who are alike and in matters of physical sexuality (s*x characteristics and hormones) all humans actually fall NOT in a binary s*x distribution pattern whatsoever but rather in a scatter graph that looks remarkably like a magnetic field with NO individuals at the polar nodes.  Binary or dichotomous s*x concepts are merely primitive simple-thinking. And, ALL people count in all debates.

http://www.360east.com/wp-content/magnet...