Do you think it makes more sense to assume that the universe is infinite or God is infinite?

Question

Don't give me any c**p about science proving that the universe had a beginning, and came from a big bang, Stephen Hawking says the laws of science bring it into existence! That means that another part of the universe creates our part, so you can still say the universe as a whole (multiverse, or whatever "the great Godless system of being" is eternal.

But do you think it makes more sense to assume there has to be a God and he is eternal and decides to create the universe, or just saying that there is no need for a God and the universe can exist by itself?

Answer 1

There are two problems ( I will present this in a formal-argument style):

1. If God exists, then God always existed or God came from nothing.

2. Either the universe always existed, or it was created, or it was caused from nothing.

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But-

3. God couldn't have come from nothing.

4. The universe couldn't have come from nothing.

Therefore,

1a. If God exists, then God always existed.

2a. Either the universe always existed, or it was created.

Since our option seem to be either (1a) or (2a), either option implies that *something always existed*, but if the universe always existed, it would render the explination much simpler, (a virtue in terms of Occams razor) as it wouldn't need a first cause. Moreover, if one finds it perplexing that the universe always existed, the perplexion ought to reasonably hold for the existence of a being that has always existed as well.

Take care!

Answer 2

i think that people would say different things because some people are very religous and some aren't

Answer 3

Think what you like about God. No comment.

But "infinite" and "eternal" are very different concepts. The existents which define the universe are eternal. But the universe is not "infinite." Hawking will tell you the universe has been measured--crudely by the standards of tomorrow--and that we know its size and shape, again crudely.

It isn't round. We know that. It is expanding at a rate that exceeds what we thought it would be doing, and something that is infinite cannot expand.

It is science that tells us existents of existence are eternal. It is science that tells us the universe that is composed of those existents is not infinite.

The reason some say the universe can exist by itself is because you begin from the default position that at one time the state of "nothingness" existed. That is a contradiction in terms. If "nothingness" existed, that would make "nothingness" an existent that exists.

If you begin from the default position that "nothingness" never has existed, you do not contradict yourself.

It is simply a matter of choosing a default position that is contradictory to logic; or one that is not contradictory.

You may if you wish, say that at one time God was the only existent. But then you would have to admit that since God was an existent, God could not have created "existence."

Answer 4

The universe is way bigger than a book my friend

-even a thousand billion copies of it!

How could one being, only so far able to wave the magic humanity wand over one planet (for example), be able to create a universe?

Answer 5

Assuming the universe is infinite is a bit difficult, as it seems to be expanding forever, and not likely to return to a "big crunch."

The age of the universe, ~ 14 billion years, is also fairly well understood, as are the stages of pre-atomic particles, atom formation, cooling, formation of galaxies and first generation stars, etc.  These do indicate a beginning some 14b years back.

Assuming God is eternal Being and Creator is Good, but to know God is to Love God.  Hence, love being a Soul quality, that is a different category from counting beans or molecules.

With the GGSoB, one has the definite problem of how it got there in the first place.  I.e., if it's always been there, it is eternal.  However, matter by all accounts has a decay constant.  Then, where did the (decaying) matter come from?  The God axiom posits an eternal Being, a Mind Energy which creates matter, and so avoids the real problems matter poses, by establishing a Creator above it.

"The Path of the Higher Self," Mark Prophet, has some good explanation.

Answer 6

I think that it makes more sense to assume that infinity is infinite, all other assumptions are speculative.

Something is working hard behind the scenes, but I wouldn't know whether to call it a god or not.

Answer 7

Doesn't both simply imply that we have reached our limit as far as hazarding reasonable conclusions go?

I assume that we simply do not have a way to know at this point, and that any that mention a means or source are speculating.

Granted some speculation is on better probable footing than are others but it is still very dim if not blind speculation.

Answer 8

No, because The History of Civilization shows that our God concept came from ancient people whose highest intellect told them that the earth was flat. It's only within the past 200 years that people are allowed to question it without fear of being punished as a heretic.  If there is a God, why would he not object to such measures being used to get people to believe in him? Millions gave been killed for not believing, and all God would have to do is show up,  and that would end atheism forever.

Answer 9

It makes no sense to assume either is infinite.

Notice finite, define, infinite.    Fini - the end.  It's the line you draw around something.

To exist, to BE a thing, a thing must be distinguished from no-thing.  I.e. it must have a 'line' around it.    No line, and a thing is in-finite.  I.e. it cannot be defined.   It is no-thing.    It is nothing.  Nothing is infinite.  If God is infinite, God is nothing & does not exist.

And the same is true of the universe.  Uni-verse.  One verse.  A verse is a line.  

Everything may be one big line, but to BE, it must be a line, it must be defined.  It must be some thing.

Now Hawking is a bright guy, but you have to wonder if he is listening to himself.  

"the laws of science bring it (the universe) into existence"

What are the LAWS of science?   Science didn't create the Laws; it's just a methodology to discover the pre-existing 'lines' that define these Laws.  The Laws are some kind of pre-existant eternal unchanging logic.

So Hawkins is saying an eternal unchanging logic brings the universe into existence.

Now compare this to the religious text of John 1:1

Except let's translate the Greek word "Logos" as "Logic"  instead of less specific term  "Word"

"In the beginning was the Logic, and the Logic was with God, and the Logic was God."

Now although prone to anthropomorphization, Religious types basically believe an Eternal Unchanging Logic brought the Universe into existence.

So there is a great eternal logic that governs the universe, but God forbid we call it God.

Religious types believe we are made in the image of this Eternal Logic, and the Darwinists believe we are made by Natural Selection & Random Mutation.

But what is Natural Selection?   You got it; it's Natural Laws of the Universe.

So Darwinists believe that new species are created by the same Unchanging Eternal Logic that formed the Universe.   But God forbid we call that God.

Now I'll give you the Religious types slap on a bunch of odd mythology on the whole affair.  But the Hawkins' crowd seems to be dancing in the rain while denying the existence of water.

In the end I suspect it may come down more to semantics than either side would like to believe.  One can of course debate if the Logic is sentient.  But even given a generic insentience, it's not like Darwinism doesn't imply the Evolution of Intelligence vastly beyond our own.

Which kind of leaves us with a bunch of know-it-alls afraid to admit they don't know.

Answer 10

I don't know whether it makes sense or not, but I believe the universe is infinite, and that God's power is also infinite.

I believe there are many things that are beyond our comprehension.  Infinity is certainly beyond mine.  I don't completely understand what God is or how He operates, but I do believe in His existence and power, and I believe I have seen its effects in my life.

A common human failing is the belief many of us seem to have that we can only believe in what we can understand.  I think I understand a fair number of things, but there are some I don't understand and that is largely why I fall back on what I believe.

Answer 11

is it too hard to believe that the spaciousness of the universe is god, where it allows things to exist, thrive, then perish?

In our states right now --having a brain, with computer hooked with internet, typing, and thinking...---we'll never comprehend what is the meaning of life with these made up system of words.

we simply have to live because we are life, going through the motion. Exist. Thrive. Perish. A space then exists another life to come next.

Answer 12

The infinite can creat the finite. God is infinite created the finite universe. no scientest can reach the boundaries of the finite universe, they r looking in the wrong direction and using unfruitful, slow means.

Answer 13

I spent years thinking on that same question.  In my personal studies I  found that so many of the laws which govern our universe could not have been even a fraction off from the way that they are now configured, so it seems to me to be the work of a designer.

I enjoyed the following video on the topic since it seemed to be scientist without any agenda except truth, putting this video together.

Now the real question.  Is this creator knowable?

Many battles have been fought and still rage today over the varied answers to that one.