Do you think that a fallacious logic atop of fallacious premises can be consistent and self-proving?

Question

How sure can we be that our deductive logic applied to true premises actually leads to truth? How certain can we be that deductive logic is in itself correct?

Logic typically fails us in our social worldly problems. It seems rather subjective.

Logic itself is an abstract concept within the mind. What might appear logical and certain within the mind has no guarantee of being certain in reality. Logic is without tangible form or force within the universe - as an abstraction - how can we be certain it applies to the physical world outside of our mind?

Logic is a man-made abstraction - with no tangible proof. Logic cannot prove or disprove logic any more than illogic can disprove illogic. If logic cannot be the foundation of logic, and it has no tangible basis, what was it based on besides the irrational and illogical? It seems to me that our subjective intuition and personal comfort with step-by-step reasoning is our only basis for deductive logic.

How can we be certain of anything?

Answer 1

Big thought.

My answer.

Logic is in the mind of the beholder. It isn't for sure. It is very subjective.

There are those who live in their own personal reality (socioptths)

Logic works if two people each tell their thoughts and if one makes sence other  the other then the logic wins.

Logic can prove an argument only if there is absolute details that can't be argued.

I had a roomate who was often in her altered reality. Often I would prove something by truth and logic. It really made her angry. I just had to be smarter and  stronger than her. I evicted her. I don't enjoy conflict or having to continually prove reality all day long.

It is best to hang out with people who live in the same reality.

If that is possible.

Logic fails where there isn't concret points to it.

Answer 2

Validity and truth are different things. We cant know for sure that our "valid" conclusions based from our "valid" premises are actually true.

I would say deductive reasonings are valid in a "logical" sense, but not necessarily "true".

Not every so-called self evident logic is purely based on abstractions, there could be other evidences that can "confirm" it.

Answer 3

"Certitude" was Wittgenstein's final project.

"Logic" is "logos" is "word" is "form."

"Logic" is humankind's attempt to find patterns, self-consistent, self-proving, self-repeating.

This led time after time to mathematized physics, chemistry, biology, psychology, sociology, cybernetics.

The proof of successful atomic and molecular control is in the precision and delineation of many physical, chemical, etc. processes and also products.

We are therefore certain of more and more.

The certitude of scientism is that of depersonalized manipulation.

Some who point to more balanced and transcendental dimensions:  "The Path of the Higher Self" and "The Masters and Their Retreats," Mark Prophet,

"Psychoenergetic Science," Dr. William A. Tiller, http://www.tiller.org

"The Reincarnation of Edgar Cayce?", Free and Wilcock, http://www.divinecosmos.com

"Testimony of Light," Helen Greaves,

"The Great Divorce," C. S. Lewis,

"The Master of Lucid Dreams," Dr. Olga Kharitidi,

"Watch Your Dreams," Ann Ree Colton,

http://www.heartmath.org

http://www.noetic.org

http://www.carolbowman.com

http://www.sheldrake.org

http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~bdj10

http://www.dreamhealer.com

Answer 4

I assure you that I am a human being. Do you think I'm mortal? Why or why not? What guess would you make regarding it?

If you think I'm mortal, it's because you applied logic:

1 - All human beings are mortal.

2 - Jtrusnik is a human being.

Conclusion: jtrusnik is mortal.

Is that "subjective and abstract," or does it have a real place in your thinking? How about this variation for practical:

1 - All stores in my area accept my country's currency.

2 - The store I'm in is in my area.

Conclusion - The store I'm in accepts my country's currency.

You don't really go to the a custom's office to make sure you have enough cash in every currency everytime you need a loaf of bread or a gallon of milk, do you?

So, logic does have a place in the world. Just because social problems are much more difficult to define in clearcut terms does not mean that logic...that is, identifying the terms of an argument and resolving it without contradiction...has no place in our thought, nor does it mean it is impracticle.

Here's another one:

Consider your life. Being alive or dead is a very objective state with objective requirements to maintain the former.

To live, you must take actions.

To take action, you must make decisions between different actions you could take.

To make a decision, you must have a code of values; i.e., a set of qualifiers that define what you are willing to take actions in order to gain or keep.

Make the choice to run around in the highway. How do you know this is a bad decision? Because it is in contradiction with your life. Same with taking cyanide and juggling grenades.

You come to these conclusions without having to perform them; rather, you understand the nature of the objects. It is the nature of our bodies and the nature of cyanide that makes even a tiny dose of cyanide lethal.

You may know this from experience, but these experiences are based in reality. We've seen what cyanide does. We've come to understand why it's so deadly.

So, we must use principles of defining terms and contradiction to act...that's ethics. To make choices, we need a way..a method...to gain an understand ourselves and the world...that's epistemology. To make this understanding, we need to know something about our nature and that of the world; we need a model of understanding them: we need metaphysics.

Metaphysics, epistemology, and ethics are the cornerstone disciplines of philosophy, which proceed off of identifying terms without contradiction: in short, it proceeds off of logic.

Just because we don't think of our lives in these problems in this manner doesn't mean it doesn't apply: it just means that doing the hard work to apply logic has payoffs in reality by guiding us to make correct decisions. This is not always easy, but it is effective.

Answer 5

Yes, you are perfectly right and

we can be certain of nothing.

Logic is always subjective. What is exactly GOOD for me, it doesn't require to be necessary or even good for you as well.

E.g.

If for anyone else to do a specific sacrifice means a stupid thing, even if you know that (you may agree that it is a stupid thing) you would do that stupid thing because of other GREAT ACCOMPLISHMENT in return which one can be a nonsense for someone else, but for you that is the greatest realisation which you ever (may) have.

So, what is logic?

For my children sake I've sold my appartment. Now my little son is a child I am proud of & I would be anyhow. But what if he was now a crippled one, with a shorter leg than the other one? I have lost almost all of a half life worth and I shall do it once again if I'll be onace again in such a crise. Does it make sense for you, or not, it does for me.

Why did I make the second child I was asked? I did it for them to have one each other for help, and obviousely not for me. For someone who doesn't like children & asked me that Q., it looks like such a burden, a stupidity. For me it is the opposite. They have their logic, I have mine. And I don't try for them to make sense of my logic. When such a person contradict me and try again & again to explain me how wrong I was (???), I may try to change the subject, to say once more & ask to be listened that this is my point of view & they should accept my personality as I accept theirs, and when they persist in making me see how wrong I was, I just can avoid seeing them or what else? You cannot lead someone else by your logic when they have their own, obviousely. It's your stuipity to work on this, towards someone else personality, because here is no longer about LOGIC.

With a logic or beyond any logic, our decisions are more important I would say; they are making the only difference into a life. Have a DECISION "in the right time" can save a life, or without it, you can kill !!!!!!!

What is in staying and looking for the sense of something without saying or doing anything? Looking for the logic of the logic ... Every one may have their own point of view, their own zero point of scaling within their life, ...

I only try just to make it simple If I can.

Answer 6

you can't.

that's the thing about life.

you never get an exact answer to anything.

everything is subjective.

as annoying as that is, we can't fight against it. if we try to find the "logic" in everything, why everything happens, how it happens, etc etc  we'll end up going crazy.

=/ been there done that.