Does atheism really require more faith than theism?

Question

Last night, my fiance and I met with a minister who is performing a non-religious ceremony for us simply because he is the owner of the facility and he offers his service free. We requested a non-religious service, and he agreed to our request. Before he agreed, he made several comments (not knowing that I'm atheist and my fiance is agnostic) that I found interesting but two really stood out:

1. He said that atheism requires more faith than believing in God because to be an atheist, you have to 'know everything' and be assured that there cannot be a God.

2. He said that he worships his god because his god claims to be perfect, he has 'nothing to lose' by doing so, and it gives him hope. Consequently, the atheist is imperfect, is 'taking a chance' that god doesn't exist, and atheism offers no hope.

What do you think about his comments? What is faith? What is hope?

FYI - In case you're wondering...awkward moments ensued when we revealed our religious dispositions.

Answer 1

Replace the word "god" in point one with "leprechaun" and laugh.

Point two is just another lame Pascal's wager, and I can't believe people still use it.

Answer 2

I find I agree with him.  Those sound like reasonable deductions, even though they are an opinion of the minister based off his beliefs, they aren't exactly as illogical as the stuff I've heard from others.  But still, it's not like he said "atheism is evil we must destroy it" or anything like that.

I can't judge him personally favorably or not, not knowing him (I once had a preacher who was so hypocritical my family eventually left that church for another one, back when i was a Christian).  But I can say he doesn't lack reasoning skills, here.  It sounds like he gave it some real thought.

[sarcasm]

Oh no, Christians thinking?  It's the end of the world!

[/sarcasm]

And yes, i could imagine some awkward moments did come to pass.  I would have loved to have seen it personally.

*gets the popcorn*

Answer 3

So basically he believes in god "just in case"?  Hmmm. So he believes in god out of fear. He believes just in case there really is a god, he wont go to h**l.  What flawed and cowardly logic.  And what athiest ever said we have to "know everything"?  Look, if you and your wife are truly athiest agnostic (which i think you are really just a christian acting like an athiest), then you must know that there is no way to prove or disprove god.  There is no way to prove or disprove a flying spaghetti monster either  or the milllions of other suggested gods. Athiests/ agnostics admit that they do not know.  Its christians and other thiests that believe that they "know THE TRUTH" and that it is THEIR god and not any of the thousands of other gods that came before or after their god that are the REAL gods.  So, your minister, by his logic, should be worshipping every god because all of those gods are "perfect" also.  Oh and god is not perfect btw.  He is no more than a petty tyrant.  Read the WHOLE bible and you will see.    

Answer 4

1) No,it doesn't take any fate to not beleive in god.

2) He has nothing to lose? How about the fact there are so many religions in existence right now and there have been even more religions throughout history.

Answer 5

No, atheism says you don't believe in something you have no proof for.

Every atheist is open to believing in something if it actually presents evidence (instead of just having someone threaten you with hellfire & brimstone if you don't "have faith").

You are atheist for everything except this specific construction of a God that was encoded 2000 years ago. You don't believe in Vishnu, you don't believe in Tiamat, you don't believe in the Giant Spaghetti Monster. Why?

Answer 6

I agree with the minister.  There is no hope in atheism.  You die. You get buried 6 feet under.  All of your life's work will be forgotten in a matter of years, at most within a generation or two, unless you are someone like Abe Lincoln.

Can a person ever be sure there is no god?  To prove that you would have to experience all parts of the universe and beyond at the same time to disprove his existence.  Those of us with faith experience God's presence in our life everyday.

Answer 7

http://video.rationalresponders.com/vide...

http://video.rationalresponders.com/vide...

http://www.rationalresponders.com/

Answer 8

1) Atheism requires no faith at all because it is simply a rejection on the basis of lack of evidence.  Someone else here said that in order to know there is no God, one would have to experience all parts of the universe.  

This is a faulty proposition on two points.  First: if God exists within the universe, then he/she/it is part of the universe by definition.  If he/she/it is part of the universe, then he/she/it subject to empirical investigation, at the very least the same as each of us here is subject to empirical explanation.  So my challenge is this: if God exists within the universe, give me an operational definition so that we can actually search for him in a meaningful manner! Stop retreating into unknowability when you're pressed!

Notice something else: the double standard.  In order to deny the existence of God, one must "explore all parts of the universe and beyond."  That is, one must do so objectively.  However, "those of us with faith experience God's presence in our life every day."  That is to say, one only needs subjective experience to know god exists.  That is: falsification requires objective evidence, but validation has the lower standard of subjectivity.  Not good enough by a mile.

The second reason that the claim doesn't work out is this: you know that Zeus doesn't exist?  How do you know?  You'd have to explore every part and aspect of this universe to know that he doesn't.  But you know he doesn't anyway?  Well, I know God doesn't exist for the same reason.

2) Pascal's wager.  Easy to do.  It assumes that there is either no god, or the Christian god.  The odds are in my favor hands down.  In fact, when you consider all possible gods and afterlives, the odds of the Christian god and the Christian version of the afterlife become vanishingly small.  No need to worry.

Answer 9

Yes, I agree that it takes far more faith to believe in no god, especially if you believe in evolution.  Evolution is self-refuting, as well as atheism.  God is self evident.  

I agree that the second statement is very strange.  If a pastor said that to me, that he gets hope from his belief, or has nothing to lose by believing, something is seriously wrong with his theology.  Of course, perhaps he said it differently from what you are relaying, since he is not here to defend himself.  Either way, what he says sounds like an apologetics argument rather than a reason to believe.

I think it's a good thing that the moment was awkward, as he should have never said those things.  I wouldn't say them to someone I knew agreed with me!  It's just ignorant.  Not all christians are like this, and I would be hard pressed to find a pastor that spoke this way.  

Answer 10

The Atheist's Boundless Faith in Deo-Atomism ("The Atom-as-God")

http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/12/a...

The word atheism is applied to phenomena which are quite distinct from one another. For while God is expressly denied by some, others believe that man can assert absolutely nothing about Him. Still others use such a method to scrutinize the question of God as to make it seem devoid of meaning. Many, unduly transgressing the limits of the positive sciences, contend that everything can be explained by this kind of scientific reasoning alone, or by contrast, they altogether disallow that there is any absolute truth. Some laud man so extravagantly that their faith in God lapses into a kind of anemia, though they seem more inclined to affirm man than to deny God. Again some form for themselves such a fallacious idea of God that when they repudiate this figment they are by no means rejecting the God of the Gospel. Some never get to the point of raising questions about God, since they seem to experience no religious stirrings nor do they see why they should trouble themselves about religion. Moreover, atheism results not rarely from a violent protest against the evil in this world, or from the absolute character with which certain human values are unduly invested, and which thereby already accords them the stature of God. Modern civilization itself often complicates the approach to God not for any essential reason but because it is so heavily engrossed in earthly affairs.

Undeniably, those who willfully shut out God from their hearts and try to dodge religious questions are not following the dictates of their consciences, and hence are not free of blame; yet believers themselves frequently bear some responsibility for this situation. For, taken as a whole, atheism is not a spontaneous development but stems from a variety of causes, including a critical reaction against religious beliefs, and in some places against the Christian religion in particular. Hence believers can have more than a little to do with the birth of atheism. To the extent that they neglect their own training in the faith, or teach erroneous doctrine, or are deficient in their religious, moral or social life, they must be said to conceal rather than reveal the authentic face of God and religion.

20. Modern atheism often takes on a systematic expression which, in addition to other causes, stretches the desires for human independence to such a point that it poses difficulties against any kind of dependence on God. Those who profess atheism of this sort maintain that it gives man freedom to be an end unto himself, the sole artisan and creator of his own history. They claim that this freedom cannot be reconciled with the affirmation of a Lord Who is author and purpose of all things, or at least that this freedom makes such an affirmation altogether superfluous. Favoring this doctrine can be the sense of power which modern technical progress generates in man.

Not to be overlooked among the forms of modern atheism is that which anticipates the liberation of man especially through his economic and social emancipation. This form argues that by its nature religion thwarts this liberation by arousing man's hope for a deceptive future life, thereby diverting him from the constructing of the earthly city. Consequently when the proponents of this doctrine gain governmental rower they vigorously fight against religion, and promote atheism by using, especially in the education of youth, those means of pressure which public power has at its disposal.

21. In her loyal devotion to God and men, the Church has already repudiated(16) and cannot cease repudiating, sorrowfully but as firmly as possible, those poisonous doctrines and actions which contradict reason and the common experience of humanity, and dethrone man from his native excellence.

Still, she strives to detect in the atheistic mind the hidden causes for the denial of God; conscious of how weighty are the questions which atheism raises, and motivated by love for all men, she believes these questions ought to be examined seriously and more profoundly.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/v2m...

Answer 11

Atheism requires no faith at all, that's pretty much what it's about.  

Answer 12

I think he has a point. I mean, you have to be EXTREMELY sure if you claim atheism right out.  There are way more consequences for NOT believing something and you are having faith that you are right because the worst consequences possible would result if you are wrong.  If you pick the other side, you go to heaven if you are right, but if you are wrong you just die and arent sad about anything and never find out that you are wrong...and there is no way for anyone to say "told you so" because they'd have to be dead to know themselves.

Answer 13

1. That's just plain idiotic. It is the theist who claims to know something. What he is saying is that it's god unless you can prove otherwise. That is simply a spurious assumption. He has faith that God exists. The atheist doesn't need faith to believe he doesn't.

2. A variation of Pascal's Wager. God never claimed to be perfect. We have an idea about god that god is perfect. Just because we can imagine something does not mean it exists. Atheism offers no hope of what? Which ideas about god are we going to pick? Atheism may offer no hope, but religion doesn't either it simply offers wishful thinking.

Answer 14

It does not require faith to be an atheist. It does require the ability to find strength in yourself rather than relying on or blaming an invisible apathetic being. It does take a very self assured person (spiritually) to negate fear. The fear that you could be wrong. An Atheist is self-reliant and willing to accept the consequences for it, should they be wrong.'

It is much easier to have faith and to be able to lay every uncomfortable or unexplainable act at someone else's feet.

Answer 15

No. It requires no faith at all.

You don't have to know everything to know god doesn't exist. He is logically impossible. You CAN prove a negative. You can know he doesn't exist for the same reason you can know a circle-square doesn't exist. His definition is self-contradictory. Self-contradictory objects are impossible. It's also contradictory with known facts, such as the fact that free will is logically impossible.

If you want to downgrade god until he's not self-contradictory and therefore possible, he will be nothing like the god of the bible that you imagine. He would be far weaker - to the point that he wouldn't be worthy of the term "god".

Answer 16

Well, that minister is a real moron.

1) No, atheism requires NO faith at all. We accept what is proven with actual evidence, and we don't believe what is NOT proven with actual evidence. Ergo, we go with the evidence, which is the *opposite* of faith.

2) He pulled a Pascal's Wager on you, and that just shows that even HE doesn't believe in his sky pixie. Hes just *betting* that his cynical not real belief will pay off with heaven for him.

If that would work, is that the kind of sky pixie you'd want to deal with, one so SHALLOW that it doesn't care if you MEAN what you say ?

Atheism isn't *supposed* to offer (false) hope. And, (false) hope is not only useless because it is, well, false, but it then WASTES your life because thats what hes betting. When he dies, he'll have lived a really wasted life, and thats the sure bet about his idiotic behavior and beliefs.  

Answer 17

*sigh*

dictionary.com see what faith means

Answer 18

Why would you want to have a pastor of a faith you don't believe in marry you???  Talk about ackward!  

The pastor is right.  It does take faith to believe there is no gods.  

The problem is that atheists want to assume everything they believe in are facts and therefore never consider if their assumptions are based in reality.  

For an example:  Why do you want to get married?  What is the purpose behind standing in front of people and making vows?  Name another animal that does this so you know that it evolved and isn't a man made institution where the man loses the children, his wallet and all the stuff.  The legal system is far from fair in dealing with divorce.

What is right?  Where did it evolve from?  You don't say a bear was "wrong" to jump the fence and eat the farmer's sheep.  So why is it "wrong" for people to do that which the animals they evolved from do?  Isn't right and wrong an overstating of one's opinion to make it seem more important than it really is?

Why get married only for legal reasons?  You can't "believe" in marriage because atheists don't have any beliefs....lol Being atheist, you can't say it is the "right" thing to do without implying that everyone else who chooses not to get married is doing the "wrong" thing in your opinion.

So examine what you "believe" to be the facts from all the different possible positions out there and be internally consistent with your choices.  Have fun!  It is better than a game of Taboo since nothing is really taboo, right?

Answer 19

Question for you to ask him:

How does he know there really is a god? Did the burning bush tell him so?

Nobody knows everything.

Answer 20

I don't agree but I can still see why he may feel that way. I really don't understand why people can't get it through their heads that atheism is a lack of faith, however.  

Answer 21

I'd say

1) He doesn't understand about the burden of proof, and that it's entirely justified to lack belief in something until evidence is brought forth to substantiate and validate such a belief.  If you ever see him again, tell him: "That which is asserted without evidence may also be dismissed without evidence."

and

2) Pascal's Wager is a lame, faulty argument.

Faith is an epistemologically worthless method of ascertaining the truth value in claims/concepts.  It's no more reliable than flipping a coin or rolling dice.

Hope, according to dictionary.com, is: the feeling that what is wanted can be had or that events will turn out for the best.  I think that's pretty accurate.

Answer 22

>He said that atheism requires more faith than believing in God because to be an atheist, you have to 'know everything' and be assured that there cannot be a God.

He's wrong. It seems to me that he probably isn't aware of the distinction between strong and weak atheism. Strong atheism is the view that God cannot possibly exist, and requires faith just as much as religion does. Weak atheism is the view that God merely probably does not exist, and does not require faith at all, especially considering that it is supported by empirical and philosophical evidence. It is not necessary to know everything in order to be either kind of atheist, although it IS necessary to know everything in order to LOGICALLY be a strong atheist. Weak atheists, on the other hand, can be perfectly justified without knowing everything.

>He said that he worships his god because his god claims to be perfect, he has 'nothing to lose' by doing so, and it gives him hope.

He doesn't have 'nothing to lose'. He stands to lose all the time he spends worshipping his nonexistence god, as well as his intellectual credibility among people who understand that God does not exist and why.

>What is faith?

True faith is when a person is absolutely 100% sure that something in the real world is true. Given that logic doesn't allow for 100% certainty of anything in the real world, faith is inherently illogical.

However, when most people talk about faith, they don't necessarily mean pure faith. In that case, faith is merely a kind of conscious bias, where one is illogically biased towards a certain viewpoint and is also consciously aware of their bias. Most people who have faith also consider it a virtue.

>What is hope?

Hope is the desire for something to happen combined with the feeling that it might happen.

Answer 23

Congratulations!

Faith, Hope and Charity are the Christian virtues:

Faith - belief in the impossible; in which all our virtues come to us;

Hope - for the hopeless when there is no Hope;

Charity - pardon of the unpardonable.

These virtues are mystical paradoxes that appear when needed.

"Hope" this helps.

God love you and good luck!

Answer 24

Given disparate mind sets, a minister's point of view will differ from an atheist's or an agnostic's.  He may have stated what was true for him--but obviously it's not true for you, and that's fine.

No, it doesn't take more faith to be an atheist.

Answer 25

LOL!!!

I have seen his ignorant fundie arguments before.

1. No one "knows everything", but that nut job apparently thinks he does.

2. Pascal's Wager!!!  LOL!!!!  They never come up with anything original, do they.

I am not an atheist but I would have definately been ready to have a conversation with him.  I will not hold back when confronted with ignorance.

Answer 26

no

what i think about his comments hmm

1-as does being a believer,as you equally have to 'know everything' ad be assured there can be a god...i see he fails to acknowledge that

2-pascals wager is his reason for believing?

wow, not really soemthing he shoudl admit to, he shoudl be ashamed, hes the worst example of a minister ive ever heard of

faith and hope are not only for the religious, i just have faith and hope in differnt things

i think he knows little about atheists and is too informed on the religious propaganda about atheists than the truth

Answer 27

Being an atheist does require faith in your self.  Faith in your own abilities to understand theology and think for yourself.  It takes faith in yourself to make a conscious choice of atheism instead of falling into the default of what ever is easier - and lets fact it - being an atheist is not easy in todays society (unless you are hiding in a closet).

Answer 28

LOL! That's pretty funny.

That guy sounds like a douche.

He should have realized that when you requested a non-religious ceremony.  What a dummy!

EDIT:

Our ceremony was non-religious as well.  We had a beautiful passage from The Velveteen Rabbit, if you are interested!

Answer 29

There's just no way that it can take faith to not believe something exists.  How much faith does it take for you to not believe in flying rhinos?

If having an invisible friend gives him hope, that's fine.  Some of us don't need that kind of prop.