Does kata suffer from chinese whispers?

Question

I mean can you be sure that the kata you learn is what was originally created. As each student who learns it and becomes an instructor and each persons body is different will errors have creeped into the kata as it gets passed on.

Nothing can be a perfect copy so some varience must be allowed, if varience is then allowed on this varience at the next generation and so on, Will elements have been lost.

Answer 1

i'm not sure, but i think you're asking if kata are in the shadow of taolu from chinese wushu. in many ways yes. chinese forms have many beneficial aspects. they are beautiful, physically demanding,spiritual, and cultivate chi. you can discover yourself through chinese forms. but karate and other japanese kata are hard and simple in appearance. and there are only a few ki cultivating kata like sanchin. i think it depends on the zeal and enthusiasm of the practitioner. but if they were to remove tae kwon do from the olympics and were distraught btw/ karate and wushu/kuoshu. i think they'd add wushu because of the many different ways you can use it and the forms are beautiful.

Answer 2

Somewhere I read a quote... don't know who it's by but...

Don't strive to be like your master, strive for what they saught.

Which I think would also encompass kata and their changes. They undoubtedly have changed over the millennia and will continue to do so. There is a set group of base forms and techniques that will remain rigid for the newcommer, but when that person becomes learned they will begin to see things that might change how they themselves do the kata. So they'll change it but teach how they were taught.

I've seen the public/olympic side of my system  change parts of the kata drastically to conform with the "new" "universal" standards. Though my particular dojo has not, we have changed a few minor things, but that was as a group, after extensive analyzation, and several higher Dan.

Answer 3

Kata suffers from to many who teach kata and have no clue what the applications are. It suffers because of to many Mcdojos where you just have to look sharp and have everyone doing the same move the same way to look cool and have no idea if it is real or not or if it works or not.

I teach Taekwando and learned from an old school guy. My master spent many hours going over the correct way to execute a move and why  and how it works. We used the moves in self defense and sparring and than in kata to build reflexes like spontaneous movement.

I have seen some of the worst Kata get high marks at tournaments just because they were done with assurance and energy; yet they were done dead wrong and would be useless in self defense.

That doesn't mean that kata is useless! It means bad Kata is useless. It is even worse than useless because it teaches the wrong thing to do in response to an attack!

A high block executed the wrong way gets your arm broken and or your head as well.

We want instant results so we send out kids to a martial arts school where the master instructor promises a black belt in less than 3 years. He must be great look at him he is only 23yrs old and already has a 5 dan in Taekwando and a 2nd deg. in Tang so do and teaches MMA to wow! What a man.

Answer 4

All the masters from times in the past to present day have altered and created new kata.According to my research and that of others more highly regarded than this writer have said so.

I have some old grainy 8 mm film converted to vhs that shows the heian kata as done in 1920 .Compared to todays kata they are different not in any big way but different.

Karate doesn't exist in a vacume or taught in a vacume where their are no outside influences.If you ignore societal pressures and changes in studying and exploring your kata it would in time become redundant.

Most modern methods can be traced to methods that were created including their kata/form to the 17th and 18th centurys.How different is our society to that society and how many changes have both gone thru to over the years.

KATA will continue to be changed and new ones created and here I am not refering to tournament garbage.

There are arguments among associations of the same style as to who has the "true form" because what a master taught when he was 40 or 50 years of age could and probably was different than what he taught at 60 or 70 years of age because of continual insight and developement.

This problem afflicts all styles and I think it is a pointless argument like 2 fleas arguing over who owns the dog they are feeding on.

I dont believe the masters intended for us to stagnate in one spot but to advance and develope what they gave us to not be what they were but be what they envisioned beyond them and didn't have the years to develope.They have given us a good starting point run with it.

Answer 5

I understand what you are getting at now, so I can revise my answer. What you have to understand is that a kata is performed for the techniques within differently by different people, mainly the tempo, because of differences in body type, mind set, application etc. This is generally only accepted at higher levels.

That same person will teach the kata exactly the way they learned it, with no personel interpritation. This is why traditional arts have the reputation for being nit picky and rigid, it is so that the kata does not change from student to student, so none of the good stuff is lost.

We actually have charts in Isshin-Ryu that we can go back and reference to make sure we are teaching it right. So I have two versions. I have the version I teach, which is exactly the way I was taught, and the version I train for application. both of these will basicly be identicle, except for maybe tempo, and what I am visualizing I am doing in it. The variences will be so subtle that somebody unfaliliar with the kata, watching video side by side, will not be able to see the difference.

That is why kata at lower levels is taught and trained so rigidly, so that the kata does not change from generation to generation. I dare say if you took a good karate school that had a correct lineage (No 1st dans opening schools to make money) with good instructors back to the origin of the style, the moves in the kata would be almost identical to the original, and any variations would be so slight as to be a non factor in anything being lost.

The only time kata may change majorly is when it is incorperated into a new style, or it is taught at a McDojo.

Very good question BTW, I am kind of shocked knowing your opinion of kata.

Answer 6

Many practitioners modify what they have learned and sometimes it is a good thing.

My Sifu advised me to analyze what I learn from him and if I see something needs to be added to enhance it, do it. He also knows that I had 32 years of foundation before I came to him.

The saddening thing is when someone who has learned something for 3, 4 or 5 years and tries to make changes.

I would never make changes unless something proved itself to be ineffective.

I had modified the way I teach certain things by applying the Centerline Theory to it because the way I learned it excluded centerline theory.

I teach Ukewaza now emphasizing the "parry" equally, as most people "block" attacks as opposed to parrying and controlling.

The things I do revert back to the way things were originally.

Not that I know because I was there, but one of my Teachers, has done Chinese MA for over 60 years and sought after as a Historian.

His research shows that this is the way it was. That's good enough for me. He trained with many of the greatest masters of Taiwan.

[edit]: When you do the "uke" this way (from centerline), your grappling and vital strikes become better facilitated. It's something you would have to experience yourself. Explanation cannot illustrate the effectiveness.

When you see most people executing "middle block", they begin by moving the fist across the chest to the opposite side, then sweep the arm out into the "block". If you understand the term "uke", you will know that it does not mean "block", but "receive". It is not a clash of the arm against an attack, it the arm receiving the attack.

The "block" can be easily stopped just by checking the arm.

If you take the fist from "chamber" to your centerline, you just intercepted the attack and set up whatever controlling technique comes natural.

Your edited statement may hold true for some, not for me. Not  trying to be arrogant.. just have confidence in the training I received.