Does omnipresence cancel out free will?

Question

I ask this question in relation to another:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=Avhz_RoGw4ydu2piQksqzWDsy6IX;_ylv=3?qid=20080730134356AAxPt18

If God created Humans with free will, the ability to think and act independently of God's thoughts and commands, then can there also be any fate/destiny? How can God have any foresight, any predictions on the actions or thoughts of Humans if we are able to think and act independently of Him?

When it comes to Humans trying to predict the actions of other humans, it is free will that adds unpredictability to the mix. However, because God can predict and foresee anything and everything, there is no unpredictability, and, as I am now seeing it, no true free will in the eyes of God.

But I want you to correct me. Reaffirm me.

But I want real answers, or at least an attempt at one, not just, "Well, God's logic is beyond us, so there is no finding out for you."

Think. At least try to answer.

Answer 1

I agree with you. It is hard to see how god isn't controlling everything when he can for see everything.

But when you read the scriptures, there really isn't any indication that god does know everything that is going to happen. For instance, you could easily argue that the reason why all of the old testament prophecies about Jesus came to place not because God could for see it, but because God made it happen with his power.

Or in revelation when it prophecies about the end of the age, god doesn't know it is going to happen by looking through his 'crystal ball', but because he is going to make it happen through his power.

So basically I'm trying to say that i don't think that God knows everything that is going to happen, so he doesn't controll all of it.

I hope i've helped answer your question.

Answer 2

If a god/creator knows all that will happen prior to the creation of existence by that same god/creator then said god/creator's knowledge negates any aspect of supposed free will by its creation and would lead to a predestined or predetermined existence by the creation.

If a god/creator did not have this knowledge then, by definition, said god/creator would not be god but would be a super or even suprerior being that , despite incredible powers would still have limits and a god/creator can not have limits.

A god/creator does not predict.  It would "foreknow" or have knowledge of prior to any and all events even those of the god/creators design as all event must be if the god/creator is, in fact, a god/creator.

This obvious fact does away with the supposed revelations from any said god/creator as if any part of said revelations is discoverd to be in error than the same can not have originated from an infallible being, which, again, by definition, a god/creator must be so as to be a god/creator.

Such apriori knowledge of the god/creator also does away with the concept of said god/creator being merciful, kind, just, compassionate, loving, etc. as said god/creator would have created literally host of beings that the god/creator knew before hand would be eventually destined to endless, eternal torment as well as those created knowing that they would suffer in this life or phase of existence from floods of "biblical porportions", and the like.  To have created being knowing that such would be their eventual outcome must be considered cruel, manipulative and evil, which, again, by defintion a god/creator can not be or do.

If one chooses to believe in an invisible, parental, boogey being in the sky then free will can not be part of the picture just as the supposed loving kindness, compassionate , caring etc. is also gone.

In the end, your choice, as also your own answers must come from within yourself and you must live with the consequences of the same (i.e., karma).

Be well, be wise and be that and who you are (once you have come to the awakened understanding of who and what that being is.)

Addtion:

Hello to my "troll".

Please, what part of logic and reasoning do you or did you find objectionable or is it that it simply and possibly sadly "burts" the bubble of your self chosen delusion(s)?

Be well.

Answer 3

Analogy:

I've made a bow and an arrow.

I draw the bow and aim the arrow.

I loose the arrow to see if it goes where I intended.

I watch its flight. But I don't interfere with it.

I suppose that I could have installed a radio guidance package,

..... but that's not the game I'm playing.

Answer 4

If it did then God wouldnt be loving. Love requires choice.

Answer 5

In order for evil to exist, it has to be perceived as an act of evil by the performer of the act, regardless who is present, or who may be watching.

Likewise, in order for NON-evil to exist, it has to be perceived as an act of NON-evil by the performer, regardless of who is present, or who may be watching.

So, it makes no difference who is present, or who may be watching, because free will is nothing more than the performers perception of what is evil or NON-evil.

  However, if one decides to abstain from perceiving any performance as neither evil, nor NON-evil, can free will even begin to come into existence.

   But, because we have retained the concept of free will, then we know that our performance of either evil, or NON-evil will be observed by our own selves, and we will judge ourselves accordingly.

   Hence, the concept of choice between evil and NON-evil has been tainted by our own selves, and whether we are being observed or watched by another, is secondary to our own awareness of our own choices.

   This means that there is no such thing as pure free will.

     I hope this helps answer your question.

        Best of luck on your quest!

Answer 6

I thought about this for a while now. Maybe it is possible for the two to coexist. All humans have free will. You can't really argue that we don't. As for omnipresence, maybe that only exists for those who believe in god? When a person asks god into their lives (i.e. ask him for help with something) he can then intervene and put that person on a path of known outcome. This is just a theory, but I don't think it's a bad one.

Answer 7

The ability to UNERRINGLY predict the outcome of an event is pretty much how the whole notion of free will came into existance.

A ball rolls down a hill.  You can apply the laws of physics and determine without a question where that ball will end up.  There is no question.

A human cannot be predicted.  What is the difference?  The human has free will.

If there exists any entity which can unerringly predict the outcome of a human's behavior, then it completely nullifies the above distinction.  A human is no different from any other deterministic object and there is no free will at all.

No amount of bizarre explanation (and there have been many bizarre theological attempts to explain this away) can possibly succeed because the two concepts are inherently contradictory.  Freedom equals uncontrolled and unpredictable.

Answer 8

I have thought the same thing: God's omniscience is incompatible with human free-will.

Yet, I have seen a few answers (and I will try not to repeat what others have posted).

One of the medieval metaphysicians ( I think Augustine) wrote that God perceived everything as happening at one time. So, from God's perspective, He saw my birth while seeing my graduation. In this way, God does not 'foresee' what will happen, or what we will choose, because as we choose it, God sees it. It is not the case that 'I will do such and such tommorow' is intelligible to God, because for God, his experience is not temporal at all. His omnipresence makes it such that His alleged experience has no temporal limits whatsoever. Thus, when God perceives, which He always is doing apparently, He perceives everything at one 'time' - there are no series or sets of events for God.

____________

One objection to this is that IF God is actually omniscient, then even before my creation, He knew all of my actions. So, IF I could have done other-wise (i.e. 'If I have free-will), that is, if I could have done other actions than I actually did, that would be a possibility for God to have been wrong. But, this is impossible - as an omniscient being cannot possible be mistaken - Hence, God is not omniscient.

A wimpy solution is to define free-will as 'I did x but I could have done otherwise, such that no other entity except God could have foreseen it'...But - again - this hardly seems like *real* freedom, if there our actions *must* be known to God prior to our doing them.

So - does God's omnipresence cancel out free-will? No. It sort-of supports it or is irrelevant to it.

Does God's omniscience rule out free-will? Yes, it seems so.

Any way, that is all I have to offer for now...Great question!

Answer 9

If God had no knowledge of our thoughts then your reasoning is logical. However sense He has sent into all normal minds a fragment of His spirit to help guide us to him he has full understanding of our intent and has given us an additional spirit thought to choose if we will.

An expression of this is found in the Urantia papers as;

P.1217 - §4 Mind is your ship, the Adjuster is your pilot, the human will is captain. The master of the mortal vessel should have the wisdom to trust the divine pilot to guide the ascending soul into the morontia harbors of eternal survival. Only by selfishness, slothfulness, and sinfulness can the will of man reject the guidance of such a loving pilot and eventually wreck the mortal career upon the evil shoals of rejected mercy and upon the rocks of embraced sin. With your consent, this faithful pilot will safely carry you across the barriers of time and the handicaps of space to the very source of the divine mind and on beyond, even to the Paradise Father of Adjusters.

Answer 10

think of it this way,  to get from point A to point B there are several ways to travel, no?  Your fate or destiny is revealed to you along the way and your journey is your free will. You may arrive at point b (death) sooner than me or later. Your destiny is your conscious choices made that also determine your own will to do one thing or another. I do not believe that all fates are predestined however, i do believe that there is an inner voice or force that guides us along the way, it's whether or not we choose to listen that determines if ones fate will dominate over one's free will or vise versa. If you look at it, it's very comparable to the Chinese yin and yang.