Does the pot call the kettle black?

Question

After all of the banter about cruelty in rodeos, I wonder what you think of the sport of jumping horses....any cruelty going on there? How about eventing? Dressage? Polo? Other? You tell me. If we look for abuse, I'm sure we can find it. What are your opinions? Are you ever a party to anything "abusive"?

Answer 1

Cross Country - about the most dangerous sport out there.

No way would all the horses sign up if they knew how many had been killed...oh that's right, the horse has no choice in the matter.

Jumping IS natural for horses - jumping ridiculous height and man made solid jumps (that look like an easter basket?!) is not natural.

I'd say risking your animal's life, on a regular basis, for your own personal glory is abusive.

Good Question!

  

Answer 2

Well, let's get one thing straight:  apparently some people think "dressage" and "rollkur" are synonyms.  They are not.  That doesn't even make any sense and if anyone chooses to use those two words interchangeably, then all that does is establish that they are an ignorant dimwit who knows not of what they speak.

Rollkur:

http://everyrider.typepad.com/photos/unc...

Dressage:

http://www.lauriejolliffedressage.com/ro...

Not the same thing, are they?

And if you don't know what rollkur is, please Google it.

Answer 3

i only see two things that are semi "wrong" with show jumping is when the horse has only its front 2 feet on the ground and is about to clear the jump, for that mili second the horse is putting all its weight on to just those 2 feet and also the weight of the rider, that could cause some damage later on

and also how they do the steeple chase i think thats what it is called where they jump all those horses together over a cross country course...like when the horse cant clear the jump and they fall and break their necks or a leg

but idk much about english since i ride western so idk maybe it doesnt hurt them, i know that too much barrel racing and turning too sharp eventually causes problems with horses legs

Jessica--- my mom used to do dressage when she was in her younger and single days and she rode an appy horse named Okie who had natural dressage movements, pro riders would ride him and talk about how their horses took years of training but he didnt really need any thing but a few touch-ups...so i would say dressage is kind of a natural thing

Answer 4

I am sure we all have our own idea of what abuse is...I bet you that a lot of the first horse owners and young ones out there see me as an abuser, because I do not stable my horses,although they have access to shellter.,no winter blankets on my guys they are out in rain snow, and wind...I don't groom and brush them every single day, I do not ride them a set amount of hours per day etc etc.  

There is no such thing as "natural horsemanship" in my mind...what is natural about riding or training or shoeing a horse...the horse was put on this planet as a wild and free animal...and now look at it.  I am not complaining, I love my horses, and do enjoy them, but we could all be looked at as abusers for the simple reason that we own one and ride it.  

Personally I hate the way show people treat their horses, "peanut rollers'  and those horrible "wedgies" that they nail on the Walker "big l**k" show horses  race horses,,,2 year olds made to run their hearts out...ponies fed till they split...horses that have to live in a box stall their whole lives.   Paint the horses hooves with black.  Trim his wiskers and manes, and fetlocks, the hair is there for a reason.  Well now I am off of my soap box..but you asked and you did get my opinion...

Answer 5

HorseLuvr, or whatever your name is, ARE YOU FRICKIN SERIOUS????

I am laughing myself to tears here!!!!  Are you truly that ignorant??

Have you ever been to a rodeo?  Have you ever been behind the chutes when they are getting the horses & bulls ready to ride?

NO!  you haven't so where do you get off talking about ANYTHING to do with rodeo?

You don't see me on here talking about riding english, why?  Because I don't know anything about it, so instead of making a TOTAL FOOL of myself like you have, I do the INTELLIGENT thing & make NO COMMENT!!!  

Your answer is so pathetic & totally ignorant, but it reminded me why I blocked you sometime ago, because ANYONE with 1/2 a brain would not want people to see how uneducated & truly ignorant they really are, like you have done with your answer to this question as well as others I have seen.

Do us all a favor, instead of talking out of your a$$ about things you are totally ignorant of,  go back to answering the "In eed a name for my horse" & howrse questions.  Because frankly your answers ooze stupidity.

We have 3 boys the oldest is almost 12, the youngest is 7 & they are soooooo much more informed & intelligent than you are it makes me PROUD to know we aren't raising HALF WITT kids like other people obviously are.

By the way, your answer is in no way an arguement, because there is NOT a single piece of fact included.  What your answer is, is b.s. from a pea brain.  In order to argue a point, you MUST have something to back up your arguement & YOU HAVE NOTHING......Makes me wonder if considering your idiotic answer if you aren't or use to be Luney Tunes, because she had imbosilic answers as well.  I am actually surprised either of you plus several others on here have the brain capacity to string two words together.

Answer 6

I don't think anything is cruel as long as the horse is enjoying it. Short of tying a horse up and beating it, or starving it, or locking it up in filth, humans can't do anything worse to a horse than what they do to each other "at play."

Answer 7

Ohhh my Galloop you sure got some whacked out answers...... What a bunch of kids!!!!! I'm looking forward to school starting!!!!!! But I think it is a lot of what other people say is crue. Like monkey see, monkey do. Kinda thing. I  think people should keep their nose on their face if they have no idea what they are talking about!!!!! Only in a perfect world!!

****edit*****

Riding with Reins-- You had to copy other peoples answers because your not smart enought to think of one yourself???!!!!!

Answer 8

I,  haven't personally taken part in any abuse of any animal, and have stuck my nose in where some people thought that it didn't belong because I witnessed abuse.  Many uninformed people just don't realize what constitutes abuse...ignorance in how to maintain an animal, physically and mentally is abuse, and I'm sure that much of it isn't done deliberately.  I have seen people on trail rides or riding down the side of the road, running their horses for no apparent reason than for their own amusement or to show someone that they can (even in the Summer heat)...even over indulging your horse with unhealthy treats, sitting in a stall day after day like a hot house plant is abuse.  Education is a big deterrent of animal abuse, then law enforcement is another, a third one is witnesses with the intestinal fortitude to stand up and testify.  I'm sure that all of us, at one time or the other have looked the other way at the shows when horses are being "blistered" or "blood letting" is taking place.  We do nothing because those very exhibitors are also judges that we have to ride to in order to make a living, sick isn't it?

EDIT****So, if a horse enjoys those unhealthy treats, any extra grain ration, staying in and being lazy rather than be exercised, that can't be considered abuse?  BS!

Answer 9

I'm not picking at only dressage.. and I do not know a lot about it but from what I've seen it is so un-natural and it disgust me to be honest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYAI8a0IV...

Answer 10

Oh boy...Haha. Here's another question where you have to really watch what you say or get reported... LOL

If i said what I really wanted to here I probably would get reported...So I'm just going to give you a 'drive-by staring' so I can stalk the question and still be a part of all the 'dirt' Muahahaha. ;)

Horseluver4eva......All I can do right now is sit here and LAUGH MY @SS OFF AT YOU. Go back to riding your breyer horses english and leave the adult conversations to the adults.

Answer 11

Well, this is a great way to start a fight in the horse section....

but, as others have said abuse can be found in ANY sport, in any section of life, in everything we do we could end up hurting, abusing, or just not following what everyone else does and being blamed for something

..

The thing is, people care more about the horse sports since they involve horses. Coaches force people into steriods and practices that the player themselves may not agree with all the time, but it doesn't effect people NEARLY as much. (sure theres news about it but there aren't many youtube videos out sports players abuse, is there?)

Like BB said, everything we do to our horses could be considered abuse (talk to PETA about that one..) we put them in stalls, we make them like us, we put halters and bridles and saddles on them and expect them to work for us. we feed them hay and some don't ever get grass like they were ment too, we give them grain and supplements, we give them baths, groom them, pick out their feet. None of it was originally in the game plan for them.. they're supposed to live outside in the plains and eat grass and live in heards and make babies, most of which horses just don't do anymore. Heck we geld them. We cut of their "parts" and don't think twice about it, bet hey, atleast we do THAT to cats, dogs, and even humans too. (yes, i know its different in humans..)

But, all this being said we're also bred them to do certian things. We've bred them to have better personalities that are more human-friendly, we're bred them to be better riding horses and most of them don't even realize that they were supposed to live in a feild. I know for d**n sure that 85% of the horses and my fancy 80 horse boarding facility would DIE without their grain and hay provided to them at the same time everyday, We're also bred out horses to like their jobs. You HAVE to realize that a horse weighs more then us and if they wanted to kill us they could (and some do..) but they don't. My horse was bred to race and he sucked. Plain and simple, but he came off the track and has made an AMAZING eventing mount. He loves his job and he loves me, he gets depressed and dangerous when i don't come up to the barn for 5 days, he gets dangerous if i don't work him he LIKES what he does, jumping over things, galloping across feilds and doing dressage. He's happy.

And yes, i'm sure i've abused horses before. I had to learn to ride on a REAL horse, but i didn't HURT it that bad (lame i know.) . I bounced around and pulled on their mouths, but that was their job. I also know i've gotten frustrated and gone farther then i shoud have. I've worked my horse harder then was fair and made him do things again and again because i was expecting perfection on a new movement. I know its wrong but i realized and NEVER did it again. We all make mistakes.

Anywhere you look you can find abuse if you try hard enough, eveything in the world is flawed, but why pin the blame on any specific group? It happens everywhere.

AND, rodeos get the blame because its obvious, bleeding bucking horses and killed riders get anyones attention, wether they're horsey or not.. Dressage is high up there also for horse people beccause of all the atricles about rolkur. Truth is, not everyone rides the way the TV shows it.

Answer 12

i agree with and now i am going to find it that video that jessica posted is really curel the pictures no horse should have stuff coming out there mouths and there necks should not be bent like that. it is not a natural movement for the horses..

Answer 13

i try to tell people that it's not each other that we should be "fighting" with, we all have one thing in common: we love and ride horses.

there is a poem out there from wwII, i'm looking it up now, and it reminds me of what this question is asking.

i supported fox hunting, because i talked to a fox hunter when i was younger, and he said:"if they band fox hunting, the animal rights groups wont stop there, they'll go on to jumping, showing, riding a horse."

i've had my questions reported and been cussed out for pointing the fact out that it's not each other, it's the animal rights groups.**sry if i'm not making much sense, been in the er all morning and i'm still dizy/groggy/IN pain. . . so if i'm overly offensive sry! not feeling well**

finally found the poem. . . it's how i feel about supporting other areas of riding, because once they start banding different sports/areas of riding it wont stop till ALL riding is band *(yes i'm an extremest and parpar for the worst)

They came for the Communists, and I didn't object - For I wasn't a Communist;

They came for the Socialists, and I didn't object - For I wasn't a Socialist;

They came for the labor leaders, and I didn't object - For I wasn't a labor leader;

They came for the Jews, and I didn't object - For I wasn't a Jew;

Then they came for me - And there was no one left to object.

- Martin Niemoller, German Protestant Pastor, 1892-1984

In horse terms:

they came for the fox hunters, i didnt object b/c i didnt fox hunt.

they came for the rodeo riders, i didnt object b/c i didnt rodeo.

they came for the show jumpers, i didnt object b/c i didnt show jump.

they came for the dressage riders, the cross country eventers and i didnt object b/c i didnt do those sports.

they came for me and my simple trail riding, and nobody was left to object.

*okay so i'm still wacked out on whatever they gave me this morning, but you get the point*

Answer 14

$hit happens everywhere. It is not just limited to animals. Women, children, the elderly....its sad, but true.

The human animal will justify practically anything if it is an end to their means. It is a matter of perspective.

A well fed and trained TWH that has been sored is "abused", the kindly treated, but ignored and underfed aged horse is "abused", the over worked school horse is "abused".

Some people feel that keeping pets or riding a horse is "cruel".

I could go on and on.

To answer your question...there is no real answer to this because everyone will have their own perspective.

I do the best I can with my animals every day. They don't want for anything and they have good medical care. Certainly better than some people in third world countries. They are used, worked and have a purpose. I eat my goats. Is that cruel?

You tell me.

Edit to Gallopa : Yes, by all means.

It makes them more tender. lol!

Answer 15

There is abuse in every sport. Let's not spend so much time saying "look at those poor horses" rather than changing it. Sure, those 3 out of 500 bulls is being mistreated, sure the 5 out of 100 dressage riders that use Rulkur is really bad. But the point is, don't stop the sport in general, just change the bad. If were going to stop the sport just because we only look for the bad, we might aswell stop hockey, or car racing while were at it.

Answer 16

I think all of the big disciplines whether western or english are guilty of some form of cruelty. Not to long ago there was a brew-ha-ha over spiked boots being used in a top jumping competition. That's just gross. It's also well-known that some people put nails on jumps to get the jumpers to snap their feet up. So, yeah, it's EVERYWHERE. Cramming horses into frame for dressage, for years and years, until their necks are riddled with arthritis (very common), that's abuse. For every discipline, there are examples. I myself stick with pleasure riding and stay away from anything formal. For me the most important thing is that my horse is healthy and happy and conditioned and cared for in such a way that he will enjoy a long life of soundness. That includes me not being hemmed into any one particular way of thinking, which the pressures of competition can produce. I will use a curb bit when I need to. Some would say that's abusive. Everyone has different standards now. Though interestingly with all the 'natural horsemanship', I just happened to come across Parelli's cradle bridle and was surprised to see it's basically a curb bit hackamore combination. I don't see how that's natural. Hmmm...funny how we can all start picking and choosing based on what someone 'in the know' tells us. I like to keep thinking for myself and wish more horse people would. Have I made mistakes and errors, sure. Has my horse bled, wound up lame, injured, or permanently scarred as a result. Not even close.

ADD: I think horses that are kept in their stalls all the time or most of the time so they don't get any blemishes or bleached out is abusive. Horses are meant to graze and move for 90% of the day.

Answer 17

I think there is probably abuse in any sport.  If you look for it, you can find it somewhere...and then make awesome videos to post on YouTube to get a following.  I don't think abuse is the standard, but unfortunately it is there somewhere, in different forms.

Answer 18

I think horse jumping is the most dangerous of all horse sports. Christopher Reeve was jumping when he became paralyzed from a fall.

Jumping is unnatural for a horse.

I have never been a part of any horse abuse or would tolerate any in my presence. I am sure when I was young that I may have been heavy handed with the reins, but back then I had a mare that would let me know it. She wouldn't tolerate any abuse. I either rode right or she would dismount me rather hard

Answer 19

A lot of it is perspective.

For the ones who believe anything 'unnatural' shouldn't be done with a horse...I would be seen as an abuser.  I am going to load my horse in a trailer [unnatural], travel to a new place [unnatural], saddle and bridle my horse [unnatural], go on trails that have man made obstacles on them and require my horse to negotiate them [unnatural].

I have pulled on the reins and bit more than I should...I have spurred harder than I should...I have put horses in compromising and dangerous situations.  I have made them afraid or anxious because I lost my temper.  Don't like to admit it...but I've done it.  The horses in my past have paid for my learning and knowledge of what NOT to do.

That said...I have learned what was wrong with ME....and changed it.

There is abuse everywhere if you look hard and close enough.  Because everyone has their own opinion of what constitutes abuse.  From believing that horses should not be stalled and stabled, to riding specific disciplines, or competing in different sports.

I also think there is real and true 'abuse' in most disciplines.  Trainers and owners who will do whatever they can to get a horse to perform the way the owner visualizes.  Through mechanical, chemical, or physical abuse.  From soaring, force through bits and different tack, to drugs, and just physical beating.

It's an ugly underground of the horse world.  And it does exist.  I hope I have learned what is right or wrong when dealing with horses.  And to stand up for my convictions.  I do believe in discipline...but also believe that there is a line that should not be crossed.  

In my opinion...Discipline done out of anger is abuse in my book.  If you're angry...you have lost control.  I've been guilty of it.  Hopefully and thankfully...I have learned it's not acceptable.

I seem to have rambled...short answer...abuse can be found anywhere if one looks hard enough to find it.  

Answer 20

What a thing to think about!  Why limit this question to horses - why not dog owners of all sorts - or any animal used for anything anywhere?

Any animal that is given human attributes by another human being could be considered 'abused' - simply by virtue of the fact that if we give animals human attributes, treating them as anything less than humans could easily be considered abuse, couldn't it?

I feel that every single individual instance of animal use can be looked at and considered differently by different people.  One person may think simply owning a horse is wrong, while another might be fine no matter what and in between there would be the person who's opinion it is that horses are meant to be treated in a certain manner, other than that is abuse.

I think that people should thoroughly consider 1.  Their true feelings behind all the rhetoric and 2. how those feelings and opinions relate to toher similar situations.

For example, if we, as Americans allow a small population to set the "rules" that all of us will follow, where does freedom go?  I am worried that too many small populations are becoming more and more powerful and my freedom is being eroded away.

Do I like to see animals forced to do something they do not wish to do?  No - but  A.  How do we KNOW what makes them happy or not?  B. Who's to judge what each animal was made for and C. what happens to those animals when a small group is successful in stopping the specific activity taking place?

I, for one, do not wish for another to tell me what I can and can not do nor to control my life through their judgements and opinions.  If that will become the norm then why not allow the public to determine who I'll marry, what job I'll take part in, what kind of car I drive and where I love?  These are the basic elements of freedom.

If any president is allowed to control what religion we practice as a society, if any single group is allowed to control what any of us do in our daily lives, we've lost freedom, which is what our country was founded on.

Therefore, I believe in the power of the people to determine right from wrong and I support majority rules and our way of judging a person's actions in a court of law.  I do not agree with the political machine's time constraints - the length of time required to take action I think could be shortened.  And I do not agree with the way the media is allowed to bend perceptions for the benefit of single special interest groups.  I believe the human animal's desire to control is getting a little out of hand and that we as a society have allowed a situation where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.  Congress' allowance of "earmarks" to ride along with bills through our legistlature I feel is tantamount to traitorus as it allows single-supported legislation to circumvent the public's approval and the democratic method of approving legislation.

So - I know I've gotten off track - I have no general opinion that this or that sport or use of horses or other animals is totally wrong or right - I believe that each individual situation should be looked at individually - people who know of abused or neglected animals are able to contact proper authorities and organizations to report upon them - an organization is in business to be successful.  One that would allow im-moral or cruel behaviour to plainly continue is one that deserves to fade into oblivion.

I personally have participated in rodeo events.  And I am of the opinion that a horse needs a job to do in life - I have seen those who stand around with nothing to do and more often than not, they seem less happy than those who are given a job to do.  I feel that horses and dogs are the two animals that can really allow humans to be part of their pack or herd to the extent they do.

So - I am against any person that thinks they have the right to beat neglect or otherwise abuse animals of any sort - knowingly - in domination.  I also think that we should truly give animals' plight thoughts from THEIR perspective, as their caretakers - whether you are christian or atheist, I think it's hard to argue that humans are the superior being and our responsibility is to act in such as way as to preserve the highest amount of species in healthy environments as we can.  Waht I mean by this, is that if we humans were now suddenly disallowed owning horses, for instance, who's prepared to handle their sudden jump in numbers, the control of their numbers from destroying our livelihoods - trampling or destroying fields of corn or passing disease?  Like those against hunting - so it's not proper to hunt, but it's proper to stand by and watch the deer population grow to such and extent as to destroy farmers fields which equate to the very food we eat - and to multiply and breed diseases from overpopulation that pass to other species and perhaps even humans?  Like TB from deer to cattle populations?  If we're going to shoot for such a lofty goal as to allow total freedom for animals like this, then why not place rules regarding who can have children and how many to assist in allowing the animal population to grow unchecked?

I know there will be many who think WTH about these thoughts - but I get so tired of hearing about people who think they're doing animals good and then not considering reality or options if a current unpopular one is removed (like removing US slaughter houses and the occurence of horses being taken in un-controlled vehicles to in-humane deaths.).

In closing, I think real, true, factual, provable education is what's needed in our country - as much as possible.  Not the skewed numbers and "facts" touted by special interest groups hoping to bring about a change in their favor.  How about creation of a group of people who's sole goal is to provide the most accurate information about any given issue before us at any moment?  That would allow me, as a citizen, to make well-informed decisions.

Thanks!

Answer 21

Every type of competition has different ways of abuse and cheating. There's no avoiding it. Whether it's blocking a horses tail to hold it still, beating it over the head to keep it down ('cause why use a tie-down?), starting them too young, putting chains on them to get a step, or steroids rather than exercise to get that "athletic look", there is always at the very least one person or trainer using horrible methods and spreading them. It's ridiculous. I've seen a girl use a chain for a quirt to push her horse on barrels, and then protest when she was disqualified. Silly silly people, can't you win without bending the rules?  

Answer 22

It's ignorance from many angles.

I refer to my answer in this question

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;...

I think it explains much of what people think of cowboys and rodeo.

And while we are on the subject of abuse has anyone ever tried looking up what Mexican Charro's do to train horses.

I have personally seen chain marks on a horse(roans show all marks) and you could count the links. I just wish people would learn about something before they start claiming anything. Other wise you are a biggott or racist.

Edit- I guess someone couldn't take the heat from my last question and got it deleted. Wooohooo. I am controversal. Hahaha.

Edit- HoRsE_LuVr_4_eVa I would realy realy realy love to see them tie up the bucking horses testicals. Honestly. I would. It would be intresting because THEY USE MARES AND GELDING!!!!! YOU FREAKING MORON.  They don't use studs because they have a tendency to come back after the cowboy, the pickup men and the other broncs in the pen. YOU NEED TO READ MORE THEN YOUR SHARK AND PETA IGNORANT PROPAGANDA!!!!!!!!!!!! GET A LIFE AND GET AN EDUCATION.

Answer 23

I have enver taken part in abuse. i can't stand it. that's why i do nothing but natural horsemanship.

"1 to change 5, 5 to change 100, 100 to change 1,000, 1,000 to change 100,000, and 100 thousand to change the world."