E85, Hybrid, Natural Gas, Plug in electric, -- which is the best both economically and environmentally?

Question

The big US automakers have sold several million "flex-fuel" vehicles that run on E85.

Toyota, Honda, and Ford are selling thousands of Hybrids

Tesla (www.teslamotors.com) has recently released an all electric car, but unfortunately its very expensive and I can't afford it.

Honda also has begun selling Natural Gas powered Civics to the public in New York and California, which emit even fewer emissions than the Toyota Prius, and costs less to re-fuel.

I'm thinking about purchasing a economical and environmentally friendly vehicle. What is my best choice. I live in California.

Answer 1

how about biodiesels running on SVO (straight vegetable oil) that was collected for free from nieghboorhood restaurants' waste oils.

ethanol is much more a contributor to other global problems than any other choice. coventional GMO corn production is very expensive and taxes the environment greatly

Answer 2

Ultimately, plug-in electric or fuel cell will be the most environmentally friendly and economical.  

Until one or the other becomes viable, a small, high mileage conventional gasoline vehicle is best.  

Too many compromises and hidden costs for both fuel and maintenance make the others poor choices.

Answer 3

Flex-fuel isn't very viable, it still consumes electricity and the ethanol it's mixed with is derived from non-renewable sources. The emissions for these vehicles show very little improvement over standard gasoline vehicles.

The gasoline-electric hybrids, for the most part (i.e. only the Pruis, Civic Hybrid, Insight) , consume significantly less gasoline than "regular" cars. All of the gasoline-electric hybrids significantly reduce emissions because they have more efficient engines and are capable of running at time without consuming any fuel.

Electric vehicles have many advantages - the trick is where the electricity comes from. If the electricity comes from renewable sources such as solar or wind power, then to run an electric vehicle, there are ZERO emissions, nor is there any contribution to depleting petroleum reserves. Even if the power comes from coal plants, the emissions spewed out to produce the electric to power the car are still less than a regular gas car. Additionally, because a large plant is inherently more efficient than an internal combustion engine in a car, the cost of powering an electric vehicle with electricity from your own home is much lower than paying for ANY form of fuel.

There are a breed of cars called Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle which are the same as gas-electic hybrids but with larger battery packs that can be recharged with an electric outlet. These can allow an all electric range of 50 miles, after which the car becomes equivalent to a normal gas-electric hybrid.

I know less about Natural Gas cars, but I know natural gas is not renewable definitely difficult to refuel.

Diesel is effective the same as gasoline, only it is much much dirtier. Even "clean" diesel is dirtier than gasoline.

Depending on how much you need to drive, I would suggest a Plug-in Hybrid Electric. I have heard the next generation Toyota Pruis will have the plug-in option. There are many conversion kits available made by third parties to convert the current generation Pruis to a plug-in. The advantages are spectacular. If you drive within the all electric range, you can get around without using any gasoline. But if you need more range the car does have a gasoline engine to provide as much if not more range than a regular car. Electric cars are also very advantageous, but are difficult to find due to the lack of mass production. California has a decent number of electric vehicle recharging stations.

Answer 4

First environmentally: according to Yahoo Autos, the natural gas-fueled Honda Civic gets a "green rating" of 85

http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center-fuel...

The Prius and Civic hybrid get ratings of 86

http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center-fuel...

Diesel/Biodiesel cars have poor ratings, but that's probably because they're basing the ratings on regular diesel.  If I recall correctly, biodiesel emissions are a bit higher than hybrid emissions, but I could be wrong.

http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center-fuel...

Ethanol flex-fuel cars get relatively poor ratings because ethanol doesn't decrease carbon dioxide emissions relative to gasoline.

http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center-fuel...

Unfortunately there aren't any very good affordable electric cars on the market right now.

So basically hybrids, natural gas, and biodiesels are pretty comparable environmentally.  Since gasoline is far easier to fuel up with than natural gas or biodiesel (b/c there are gas stations everywhere), convenience has a big advantage over the other two.  However, if you want to reduce our oil consumption, then it's a disadvantage.  Biodiesel has the disadvantage of using food sources for fuel, and natural gas has the disadvantage of not being a renewable resource.

Economically, you can get comparable prices on new cars for each technology (diesel Jetta = $21.6k, Prius = $23k, natural gas Civic = $24.6k).  I think biodiesel at stations that carry it is around $3/gallon, while gas is approaching $4/gallon.  I'm not sure how much natural gas costs.  Since the Prius gets better mileage than the Jetta (55 vs. 39mpg EPA estimate), that will eventually make up the difference in costs between the two cars.

So to summarize, a Prius hybrid and a Jetta on biodiesel will be pretty similar in terms of environmental benefits and economy.  I would recommend the Prius because gasoline is much easier to come by and Toyotas in general are much more reliable cars than Volkswagons.  I own a 2007 Prius and it's a great car.  If Toyota comes out with a plug-in hybrid, that would be the best car on the market.  That won't happen for a few years yet, however.  They just started researching the possibility about a year ago.

Answer 5

Natural Gas is best both economically and enviromentally.

Answer 6

Definitely a DeLorean with a Flux Capacitor!!!

Ok, Diesel is actually your best choice.  The other sources are ultimately more expensive because they don't yield as many mpg.  Ethanol, for example, has less potential energy available per gal.  Therefore, you have to use more of it to go the same dist that you would drive with diesel.  The ultimate would be a diesel/electric that used the diesel for Hwy and electric for city (with the electric being recharged by braking and a few tiny windmills behind a honeycomb grill.  Unfortunately, they don't currently have such an animal.

As far as the all electric car: you have to pay for the electricity by paying your utility bill so the only way it works out better (economically) is if you have very cheap electric rates, generate your own electricity, or can plug in somewhere other than your house.  Some (very few) cities actually let you plug in at certain locations for free.  Some companies provide the same benefits.

Good Luck ;-)

Answer 7

Hi, you've asked a very detailed question. Get comfy and we'll run through each option.

Each has it's own pluses and minuses, but considering where you live, and considering you don't bring up moving to another state soon, we can eliminate a couple right away.

* E85 is 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline. Ethanol is grain alcohol, most commonly made from corn, but new technologies are being developed to produce ethanol from waste plant materials, such as corn stalks. This is still a ways off for the US, but other countries do use it.

Ethanol is currently less expensive than regular gasoline, however that could change. Remember that ethanol is made here from corn, what happens if there is a change in corn production? What happens if it becomes politically more advantageous to sell more of our surplus corn to the world (China, anyone?) or we get hit with drought conditions that severly limit the amount of surplus corn produced?

This is in addition to the fact that we are taxed as a country to suppliment the production of corn, and then corn into ethanol.

Plus ethanol, being alcohol, is less dense than oil and provides less energy for the same volume of material. You get less mileage for the same amount of fluid.

And ethanol is not available across the country. There are currently about 260,000 public gas stations in the US, but only about 1.5% of them carry ethanol. In some places, those stations are common, in other areas they don't exist.

So ethanol is not a good, long term choice. Sounds good in ads, but doesn't add up.

* Electrics and plug-ins could be a great idea if they were more common and could do more for you. What is important here is that the range and/or speed is extremely limited. If you never need to go on the highway, never need to go above 40 mph, or don't mind having a year 2000 compact EV pickup that costs $25,000, you are in business.

One of the main pluses touted for EV's is the low cost of operation. It is true that the infrastructure for electricity makes it a relatively cheap option. Once again, remember that your taxes help to defray the cost of electricity, so that does lower your monthly bill.

And electric motors do not have the moving parts and wear and tear of gas engines. So they do last much longer without breakdowns (many industrial electric motors have been in almost continuous operation for over 50 years).

However, the large cost of converting a vehicle over to EV only or plug-in, plus providing a vehicle to begin with, more than make up for the lower cost of continuous operation.

Using lead acid batteries is weighty and the charge is used up quickly, though the cost is lower and the availability is easy.

Nickel cadmium batteries are so toxic and they have a memory so the charge is reduced as they are run. So they are not a good choice to consider and are largely not used.

Nickel metal hydride batteries are lighter in weight and hold more charge for the same size, so the range is extended. However, the cost is much higher and they are much harder to come by. Memory is usually not a problem.

Lithium ion are the best of the current/upcoming crop of batteries for size, weight, power holding and memory is not an issue. However, cost is highest and availibility is very difficult for the average person.

So, between the lack of range, lack of long term power (long term speed= highway cruising), high cost, and the long charge times, EV's are not a good option for many people.

*NGV Civics are a great idea for places like California. You lease a NG Phill for your home for about $70 a month and then you pump your Civic full each night.

The NGV Civic costs about $25,000 and the natural gas costs whatever the market is.

The mileage is 28city/39highway, less than a standard Civic on gas, and the NGV holds about 8.03 gallons equivalent, for a range of about 220-240 miles, in regular driving (Honda website). That range should handle most daily commuting, but weekend trips might be a problem. And refilling takes about 16 hours at home if the tank is empty. However, refueling can be much faster at pumps throughout California.

Orders for the Civic NGV are being taken now for delivery starting Oct. 2007.

Great option, as long as you can wait until the end of the year, or beginning of next year for delivery (depending on how many people order one and how many are available). Also, consider the short range and refueling issues. Plus the $25+ cost. However, the emissions are nearly zero.

* The choice I would recommend is a full hybrid like the Toyota Prius or Honda Civic. A full hybird can actually move using only electricity (as opposed to a partial hybrid like the Vue Green Line that has to have the gas engine running to move the vehicle).

You will have:

- a range of about 400 miles

- a vehicle that makes no compromises for keeping up with traffic

- a new vehicle (if you do that) with a full warranty from a national company

- a proven technology

- all the comfort and convenience features you will want/need

Plus, speaking for Toyota, there has yet to be a nickel metal hydride battery fail. The current record is a Prius with over 360,000 miles with the original NiMH and hybrid system. That is not a typo, and anything you may have seen is an urban myth. So the tech there is extremely stable and reliable.

Another urban myth that I still see being posted is about the Prius being worse for the environment to produce than the Hummer because of the nickel metal hydride batteries. I have addressed this multiple times. Do a search for resolved questions in Yahoo Answers about the Prius and Hummer and you can see why this myth is wrong on many counts.

So, you need to decide how much risk you're willing to accept and how many limitations you want to place upon your driving.

If nothing else, learn to drive what you get,or have, in a new way. One of the main things I teach at my classes is how to maximize mileage with whatever you drive.

I average 51-53 mpg in a Prius, with the air and stereo on, in mixed highway and city driving. This is done by simply taking your foot off the accelerator and coasting (or gently pressing the brake pedal in a vehicle with regenerative braking) beginning at double the distance you'd normally begin to stop. And then pressing on the accelerator like there is an egg under the pedal and you're trying to gently roll the egg out, not crush it.

These two techniques, plus checking your tires 2X a week with a digital tire gauge and not using E85, will go a long way to improve your mileage.

Good luck, and enjoy your new vehicle, whatever it is.

Answer 8

Get the Civic

Answer 9

The Honda Civic GX NGV

#1 - Lowest fuel cost per mile of any vehicle sold in America

#1 - Lowest emissions of any vehicle in America

Just given "The Greenest Car on the Planet" award

So there you go. the Honda GX will be your next vehicle.

http://www.evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=8...

Also in California, there are lots of NGV filling stations as well as program support for PHILL which prevents you from ever having to go to a fuel station, by topping off every night.

Answer 10

My opinion is that plug in electric is the best. We could use solar energy, a clean energy source to fuel electric power stations. E85 cars gets horrible gas mileage the best is just 13 mpg! Hybrid is bad since it runs on gasoline and since prices are rising, not buying gasoline powered cars would be better for the economy. Natural gas isn't bad but there is only a limited 100 year supply of natural gas left in the world. Who knows? If you buy solar panels you could use that to build an electric charger at home so you could get fuel completely free! Electric is the best answer.

Answer 11

I'd go for the flex-fuel E-85. But then, I think grassahol is the future. One acre of switchgrass yields about 1200 gallons of fuel per acre.

Answer 12

Right now, it's very hard to buy a decently green car.

E85, honestly, isn't very green.  There's like 1/2 gallon of fossil fuel burned to make 1 gallon of ethanol.  Grrrreat.

The hybrids on the market today are all "weak hybrids" that can't plug in and give only modest gains in fuel economy.

Natural gas is still a fossil fuel, and an inconvenient one.

Plug-in electric ROCKS, but you can't buy a "normal" car, just glorified golf carts or insanely priced sportscars.

If you can, wait a few years as the options will get much better.  In the meantime:

- Buy a used diesel and run B100 biodiesel, or convert it to run SVO (straight veggie oil).

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_sv...

- Take a gas guzzler you'd otherwise like, and convert it to an electric car yourself.  Thousands of people have done this.

http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/build

- Buy a Prius and convert it to plug-in hybrid.  http://www.calcars.org/where-phevs-are.h...

Answer 13

Hybrids get decent fuel economy, but the problem is they are very complex, and very expensive. Toyota charges a $7,000 premium for their HSD. So yes, that means the Prius is a $14,000 car with a $7,000 drive system. Also they are not environmentally friendly because of their large nickle based batteries. Nickle creates extremely toxic emissions when being produced. And it has to go through several more step before it's a battery.

Diesel is very efficient, but unfortunately the government has risen the emission standards so much for diesels they are becoming less and less practical.

Electric cars and Plug ins will be the best on an economic and environmental level. They are inexpensive to use, and get their energy from power plants, which have a MUCH higher efficiency than a vehicle... so that means less overall emissions.

GM is making an Electric vehicle called the Chevrolet Volt, and that will be out ~2009. You plug it in to charge the battery, and it will go 40 miles on electric only. After that, a gas generator turns on to charge the battery. While doing that you get 50 MPG. About 5 MPG better than a Prius. GM's main target is the Prius, so you can expect it to cost a little over $20,000.

Answer 14

Ethanol is a horrible idea.

1. It takes more than 1 gallon of gasoline to just make 1 gallon of ethanol.

2. It cost $1.38 for each gallon of ethanol in government subsides. the tax payer is paying for this.

3. Your vehicle gets between 24%-34% less fuel economy than gas.

4. According to ABC 20/20 #1 myth in america

5. Visit these web sites- www.cato.org (cato institute), ABC 20/20 website, Read the Patzek report.

6. It has much lower BTU rating than gas.

7. All 112 Ethanol plants use coal to burn their plant when they can use ethanol- To Expensive

8. Came out 3 weeks ago. It is worse on the enviroment than gas, this was 18 year study.

9. Requires 65 cm water to grow a bussel of corn-

10. Food prices have skyrocketed- Beef, Chicken,Dairy anything with corn, because corn has doubled in price in 2 years.

11. Soil errods 18x faster than it can replunish itself.

12. Putting fertilizer and pesticide in our groung water.

13. ADM plant in Clinton Iowa puts out 20,000 tons of polluntants when the industry standard is 100 tons.

14. For every $1 ADM makes in profit, it cost the tax payers $30.00 (www.cato.org) ADM makes 70% of the usa ethanol.

15. If we used all of land to grow corn, it would only reduce 1/2 of 1 percent of the foreign oil indepence.

15. We have over 400 years of oil in Colorado in the Green river basin, infact more oil hear than than the entire world combined. www.oil-price.net/index- This can be found anywhere. It was in the 2005 federal energy budget. Can pulled and refined for $12.00 a gallon.

16. It is so corrisive it can NOT go down our pipelines. It must be shipped by train or truck. More fuel used!!!

This is just a start of info I have.

Must watch the ABC 20/20 and cato institute info.

Hillary Clinton has voted 17 times against ethanol and now she is for it. Wonder why- I know. If are against ethanol in the midwest- you will never get more than 5% of the vote.

I could go on forever.

Want to read about Oil Shale in Colorado

http://www.ostseis.anl.gov/guide/oilshal...

Answer 15

Electric, it's cheapest and greenest. It's just like a hydrogen car basically, only you fill the batteries, not the tank.

I've heard recently you can get hybrids that you can also plug in, allowing you to charge them off the grid, so it's basically an electric car. There's also other things you can do to a hybrid to make it even more of an electric, add batteries and so forth, there's clubs for people that do these modifications, I guess it's like souping up your hybrid.

But the electricity, even if it's made from coal, comes from a place that's using the fuel at maximum efficiency, so there's the least waste.

If I were you I wouldn't go with just E85. If you can't go for electric try a hybrid and ask about the plug in option for topping it up at home.

I even found you a link here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_hyb...

Answer 16

Volkswagen Jetta with a Diesel Engine 1998 (Or newer)

You can run this car on used Oil from any McDonald's.

Mcdonald's has to pay money to a company to pick the oil everyday from their restaurants.

If you pick their oil from the same McDonald's they will give it away to you.

If you convince your neighbours to buy a diesel car then you can sell them the Oil to them too.

It sure beats $4.00 USD per galon of gasoline.

All you need is a few filters (There are many shops doing this for $400.00 USD all over California)

I am not talking about Biodiesel (Which you can also use with your Volkswagen Jetta)

I am talking about SVO (Straight Vegetable Oil) unmodified directly from the McDonald's to your tank.