Helen Mirren on rape...?

Question

Based on another question about Helen Mirren's views on rape:

Dame Helen's contention was that a woman who voluntarily ended up in a man's bedroom and engaged in sexual activity – but then said no to intercourse – could not seriously expect to take that man to court on a charge of rape if he ignored her last-minute insistence that she did not want full s*x.

That had happened to her "a couple of times" 40 years ago when she was a budding actress. She had not reported the incidents to police because "you couldn't do that in those days". And perhaps, she suggested, that was not such a bad thing. "

What do you think?

Just because someone wants to make out, or even have foreplay doesn't mean they neccesarily want full blown s*x.And if someone says NO at any point and the person forces them to carry on, isn't that rape???

I think her views are twisted and it's also very negative to men. It's basically saying that if you 'lead on' a man then he will commit rape if you say no. Sounds like she is promoting the ridiculous 'All men are rapists' ideology at the same time saying it's womens fault?

wierd...

Answer 1

a woman has the right to change her mind even in bed.

but how can she proove rape when it is just her word against his?

the situation is messed up.

Answer 2

I have been in the situation you described many times with women when I was younger and never thought they had "ceded" their basic human right to do whatever they wanted to do, based on choosing to do entirely different things.

The Paglia quote above is a viewpoint more young women should adopt, though, for their own protection.

Answer 3

No means No.  It always has.  It always will.  

Answer 4

Well, it would never have occured to me to go to a man's room with him if I didn't intend to have s*x with him - I mean what else could he possibly want?  He wasn't planning on showing me his etchings, was he?

I think Helen Mirren was very sensible not to report these incidents, because if you start something with a man you should finish it.  You can't expect him to just break off when you've got him going. I don't believe this sort of incident can be called rape, that's just too silly for words.  If you don't want to have s*x with a man, then don't get into bed with him.

Answer 5

I agree. I think her view demeans women and insults men in the same breath.

Women who seek pleasure should expect mistreatment.

Men have no free will past a certain point of arousal.

Please.

It's funny how so many men will rush to the defense of this argument. They don't even see how bad it makes them look.

Answer 6

Disgusting. Some men actually have RESPECT for women, Ms. Mirren! And how is she defining sexual activity? Many consider making out a sexual activity... but that's hardly at the same level as s*x!

Answer 7

No should always mean no, but Nobody likes a tease. Maybe being a tease should be illegal.

Answer 8

It's basically saying that if you 'lead on' a man then he will commit rape if you say no. Sounds like she is promoting the ridiculous 'All men are rapists' ideology at the same time saying it's womens fault?

...I don't agree with your conclusion of her words.  I don't agree that all men, when confronted with a last minute No, will commit rape.  And I don't think that she was perpetuating the notion that all men are rapists.

s*x that is not consentual is rape.  Period.  But I do think that some women put themselves into dangerous situations that MAY lead to rape - going to a man's bedroom and fooling around is an excellent example.  

No one deserves to be raped...not for how they act or what they wear.  But I do think that women have to be smarter about the choices they make - and in doing so, they may keep themselves out of harm's way.

Answer 9

Yup, you're pretty much on the nail there. She's bought into the idea that consent to *some* sexual activity can be taken as consent to *any* sexual activity, and also into the one that men can't be expected to control themselves and it's up to women not to 'lead them on'.

As you may have guessed, I think this is rubbish, insulting and dangerous to both sexes. The armchair psychologist in me suggests she'd rather tell herself this stuff than admit to being a rape victim.

Answer 10

I think it is a non issue. If a woman does not want to have s*x with a guy she hardly interacts with him, unless there are other reasons like business. If a woman goes into the bedroom with a man she wants s*x. Only 2 kinds of woman would go into the bedroom and then say no during s*x, a total b*tch that wants to press charges for rape towards some guy, or a woman that wants to use her goods to achieve a goal, but then needs to tell herself she did not want it and it "just happened anyway". If there are other reasons, like physical discomfort, she would say so and a normal guy would respect that. If she is like ouch and the guy keeps going then yes, its rape. If she says no out of the blue then that girl is just looking to stir trouble and will say you raped her because you were still inside her 2 microseconds after she said no.

As for your example, that actress probably used tactics of aggressive negotiation, nobody can say what happened in the bedroom but it is safe to say she had s*x she did not want, to advance her career. I can imagine you want to tell yourself in that situation you said no and did not really want it.

Bottom line date normal women and you wont have to worry about ending up in jail on fishy rape charges.

Answer 11

I am of the opinion that Dame Helen's views are largely a reflection of the time in which she was raised, i.e. "date rape" was not considered a serious offence.  I don't feel that her views typify the views of the majority, i.e. when a man or woman does not unequivocally consent to intercourse it is considered rape in most Western Jurisdictions.

In most cases like this it comes down to "he said, she said," so it's hard to predict the outcome.  The law, however, is clear that there must be consent.  Despite Dame Helen's preeminence, I don't believe that she has much power over legislation.

I also disagree with the Feminist belief that "All men are rapists," as this is not based on quantitative data, rather it is qualitative, i.e. the opinion of a group of old butch dykes who hate men.

Answer 12

No should mean no as it always has but I have to say if the woman says no she has to make it sound like she means it because some men are pretty dumb and think that persuasion can change their mind.

So if the woman said no then said well ok how is a man supposed to interpret that? I know that it would be best if he just took the hint the first time but yea.. some aren't that smart

Furthermore I always interpreted rape as an act of violence, if woman does end up giving consent and does not resist then no violence has been committed. So where does that leave the law?

Answer 13

While I admire Helen Mirren and think she is a wonderful role model, I have to disagree with her in all honesty..Perhaps these views are generational really? Most of the younger generation that have grown up in a more liberal and liberated society for women do not hold such archaic views

Answer 14

What about wives who are beaten and raped by their husbands? Or just pinned down and submit to it cos they know he won't listen to them? Are they not really victims of rape cos they took that man into their bedroom willingly? Either you accept women have agency and a choice to say "no" and make their own decisions or you don't.  You can't say "oh well once you let him in your bedroom then she becomes fair game."  We need to encourage men to take responsibility for their sexual behaviour instead of promoting the idea that male urges are uncontrollable and that it is up to the woman to behave "appropriately" to protect themselves.  A woman can draw the line whenever she wants, or else you are saying women shouldn't have complete control over their bodies and their decisions.

Answer 15

Feminist Camille Paglia holds similar views.

From her interview with The Yale Journal of Ethics:

"The hot button issue that I have become notorious for is date rape. The modern independent woman has to be fully responsible for her behavior and experiences in every social encounter. I do not want a situation where we have women running to authority figures to intervene for them with men."

:"I feel that true rape is stranger rape or where violence is used as part of a s*x act to coerce. We cannot have this fascist situation of "he said, she said' in the absence of physical evidence of actual rape, even if there is evidence of sexual contact. One of the costs of modern feminism is that women must be like g*y men who understand that every date is a sexual encounter. Every woman must regard a date as a possibility for mixed messages. If she is very religious, if she plans to be a virgin until marriage, if she is not sure about the person that she is with, she should be absolutely safe and she must guard herself. If a woman goes to a man's apartment on the first time she meets him, she is consenting to s*x. That's what it means. I am sick and tired of women saying, "Well, he just invited me in for a drink." That's called mixed messages. If you want to be safe, stay out in the public lounge."

Answer 16

Of course she is wrong. A person does not consent to s*x when they kiss or go into someone's bedroom. They also have the right to withdraw consent at any time - if intercourse becomes painful, for example.