Hi you all fighter pilots/experts on dogfights?

Question

hi you all fighter pilots/experts on dogfights

at what range of altitudes and speeds does

dogfights usually happen ?

dogfights MOSTLY happen at what range

of altitudes and speeds ?

are there types of dogfights ?

do dogfights happen at transonic/supersonic speeds ?

At peak performance, how many seconds does it

take to make a full circle ?

* banking at 90 degrees, 8-9 G, HORIZONTAL circle

* high performance fighter (F-16, F-22, MiG-29,

Su-27 Flanker, etc)

At peak performance, how many seconds does it

take to make a full circle ?

* going up, inverted then down, VERTICAL circle

* high performance fighter (F-16, F-22, MiG-29,

Su-27 Flanker, etc)

* excluding Su-37's kulbit maneuver

thanks a lot ;)

Answer 1

The "kulbit" is purely airshow:  I WANT a guy to p**s away his energy and show me his planform.  There is no tactical use for this maneuver despite what Sukhoi and Russian media claim.  There's a name for guys who try this:  dead.

Also, any sane fighter guy is going to avoid a furball-your odds of survival go down exponentially the longer (and with more gomers) you fight.

Your first question is: from nearly on the deck to FL300.  Nearly all engagements are fought at or near "corner velocity" which is the ideal velocity vector that allows one to keep energy while maneuvering.  This is normally at .85-1.0Mach (depending on altitude, naturally).

2nd question:  Not sure what you're asking here:  furballs are defined as least more than 1v1, i.e. many-on-many.  Keep in mind that fights are over in seconds around 30-45 seconds, more if one has to maneuver for a tracking solution.

3rd question: The majority of air-air kills from Korea until now have occurred against gomers who were trying to separate due to fuel.  Also the majority of THOSE fights were in the subsonic/transsonic regime.  It's not s**y and you won't see it on the Discovery Channel but this is why fuel management is EXTREMELY important.  This is also a key advantage of the F22 with its ability to move subsonic-trans/super sonic without afterburner.  It can stay in the fight longer.

EDIT:  Air/Air kills in BH and Iraq were fought at 1.0Mach or less.  I excluded pre-merge and merge as by definition those are not furballs.

Answer 2

Oh "stay in the fight" h**l. Korea was about the end of the road for REAL dogfights. Very limited to engage anyone in a dogfight in Viet Nam and beyond.

Now, h**l it's awacs and push a stupid button from 40 miles away, you blast the guy out of the air and that's it. How exciting.

*EDIT* Go ahead, thumbs-down me, the truth hurts.........

Answer 3

dogfights can occur at any altitude. most of the time, they start with a head-on pass because that is the only position that is neutral. ie: does not give either pilot the advantage.

Entry speeds for dogfights are usually just below supersonic. 500 knots to 600. Speed is not always an advantage and most aircraft's optimal turn rate is not near Mach 1. (most aircraft's best turn rate are around 300-400 knots)

When traveling fast, your turn radius will be bigger, aka, you are less maneuverable. You want to be able to turn in the tightest circle possible.

dogfights do happen at transonic/ supersonic speeds. They do not continue at those speeds for long.

speed of the dogfight is usually determined by the person on the defensive, aka, getting shot at. if the hunted is going supersonic (while maneuvering, not running away), the hunter will also need to go mach1+ to keep up with him.

dogfights MOSTLY have a entry altitude of anywhere from 10,000 to 50,000 feet. (depends on situation, sometimes, they start lower especially is over flat terrain or over the ocean)

mostly, the dogfight will slowly lose altitude as both parties trade altitude for airspeed. In a real air combat maneuvering situation, it will either end with a splashed bogie or the "loser" makes a high-speed, most likely supersonic egress at low altitude out of the area.

i don't know what you mean by different types of dogfights but the all have one goal. Get in a position to shoot and deny your opponent the position he needs to be in to shoot you.

for your full circle question, it is directly related to aircraft speed and aircraft best turn rate.

here's a few figures for the f-16 and the su-27, i didn't find any for the f-22, obviously nor the mig-29

F-16

Maximum instantaneous turn rate: 26 degrees/second

Maximum sustained turn rate: 18 degrees/second

su-27

Maximum instantaneous turn rate: 28 degrees/second

Maximum sustained turn rate: 22.5 degrees/second

instantaneous turn rate means the BEST turn rate possible but at the end of it, you will be on the verge of stalling and would have lost altitude

sustained means, well, that turn rate can be applied forever, without the aircraft stalling or losing altitude

vertical circles are usually called loops.

time for a full loop largely depends on aircraft capabilities and pilot choice. a loop at max G load isn't always what will help you. I'm not really familiar with this type of figures but you can take the turn rate of the aircraft and make a very very rough estimate

**edit* jim's info is quite accurate but he is talking more about the 1950s fighter technology used in korea and vietnam

also, I do believe the kulbit is airshow material but who knows? maybe it does have a use. creativity is a must in air-to-air combat. (however please note: pulling out the speed brakes to slow down and let the opponent zoom in front of you is not creative, its suicidal)

**edit2***

just saw a video on youtube of a minimum radius turn for the f-22. timed at 20 seconds for full 360. G loading was quite high. that translates to 18 degrees/second turn rate. it is a sustained turn rate.

Answer 4

1) Dogfights can take place from ground level up to the operational ceiling of the aircraft.

2) Mostly dogfights have taken place from 5,000 -30,000 feet.

3) Dogfights can be either 'visual' when each pilot is visually engaging the other, or 'vectored' when others (AWACS/Radar) are guiding them in, or a running dogfight when one adversary is pursuing the other and trying to gain an advantage for putting in a shot or a missile.

4)  Dogfights are mostly transonic when fought in close quarters. Throttles are held at 85% and above (going up to burner) to have the best maneuvering speed and power.Speed and power are always advantageous. In the other forms dogfights could be supersonic.

5) Max-rate turns: The time for a full 360 degree turn, holding 90 degrees bank, full throttle and maximum Gs may vary, but a modern day fighter should do it in approximately 25-30 seconds. Sorry I have no figures for individual aircraft.

6) A loop should, in general, take longer than a max-rate turn because it will lose speed on the way up, and while coming down if you tighten the loop (to quicken it), it will not pick up speed fast enough. Again no data on your aircraft.

7) Kulbit - I have no knowledge, hence no comments.