Horse training methods?

Question

I know that tonight we have all had our debates and sides on NH training, My question is That the lines are well defined and I want to know from people If you feel a trainer who is not publicly advertising only doing NH the Parelli way is a bad or abusive trainer? Ive heard comments referring to "if not NH then they use intimidation, pain, and fear to accomplish there goals" Do people really believe this???? If so how do you group all successful and winning trainers into that group? I feel really insulted to be classified as a "bad trainer" by you guys just because I dont practice the Parelli way. I was taught by real, experienced, winning trainers, have worked hard, have good ethics and care about the health and safety of my horses, how does that equate to being a bad or abusive trainer.

Answer 1

It's just about having an open mind...it shouldn't be about name-calling or finger pointing.  There are as many ways to train horses as there are people who train them.  It should be looked at as a dialogue between many people who all care enough about what we do to want to do it as best we can.  I don't think you should feel insulted by anything in the debates...you know what you do and why you do it...and you know that you are not abusing your horses in the process.  Most of the debates are just sharing of ideas, or evaluating what's out there and discussing it among a variety of people with a variety of experiences.

To answer your question, I have no idea whether you are a bad or abusive trainer, but I tend to doubt that someone so concerned about horses would be either one of those. and I don't believe in generalizing and pidgeon-holing people into groups....there are always good, bad, and somewhere-in-betweeners in everything.

I just thought of something else.  How would you feel if you were a believer in Parelli, and using his methods, and then had to endure the crucifying and ridicule those people are put through on this site on a regular basis?  Don't you think you are insulting them?

Is there anything less about the horse and more about the money than winning World Championship titles?

It wasn't meant to bash you...I'm sorry it came off that way....I know you are a good person and I just guess I should shut up.

Thanks...I'm still gonna shut up..I get too involved in the debate and forget to think about what I'm putting out there sometimes.

Answer 2

Like BB, I know what I know.  My horses are FAR from being afraid of me, in fact I think if they could laugh at me or give me the finger they would.

One horse I trained untied himself from the horse trailer & followed me into the women's bathroom at a team roping once.  Obviously NOT afraid of me.

I will dicipline a horse as needed & no, our horses are NOT perfect & they get a swat or smack now & again for being generally obnoxious or just plain stupid.

Our oldest horse is 11 our youngest is 7 & he belongs to our 7 yr. old son.  We have had all but one since they were 3 to 5 yrs. old depending upon the horse & the training they were sent out for.  I have not saddle broke a horse in years due to back & knee injuries, but I do all of the ground work.  NONE of our horses have bad habits, the biggest problem we have with them is that they can think....No, I'm serious.  When something can think for itself they are going to make up their own mind to do something or react to something or flat out decide against something, etc.  But, they do not bite, kick, rear, buck, strike, generally they refrain from spooking, but when they do spook, they do not freak out & take off running blindly away, none are head shy, they do not flinch at the slightest movement or break into a sweat when they see us.  If they are unhappy or pissed, they let us know.  As I said, they are NOT perfect, but compared to MANY MANY MANY of the horses I have heard about on here & the MANY others that have come from so called professional or Natural Horsemanship trainers, they ARE perfect.

I do not consider myself a professional by any stretch, but I will stick up for my methods because I was taught them as a kid & they have not failed me yet.  I know that I feel safe putting our kids on horses that were started by me & finished by my grandad (God rest his soul) using the "old" ways.  Not a single book or dvd set in our houses about training a horse & we do not get RFD t.v.

I do NOT consider whopping a horse with a length of garden hose abusive when it is between that & having my head kicked off.  I have NEVER & will NEVER beat a horse into submission, in fact I have whopped more than one with a whip for various unacceptable behaviors, but I have NEVER had a horse fear me.  By the time my dicipline method is over, the horse will seek me out to make sure we are good.  When they do this, they are talked to & praised not fed treats.  There are a lot of people out there who might consider my indifference toward a horse who has been diciplined as mean, but that is what works for me.

Anyway, like I said I will continue to do what works for me & what I was taught.  If I hear of a tweaked method of doing something I will generally ask questions about it & either dismis it or store it away for future reference.

I freely admit, there are many things I do not know, I was not taught technical things, I just know what I like, I know what I do not like as soon as I see it pretty much & I know what methods work for me for different things.

I am NOT a NO! NO! person & will NOT ever be.  Our horses are spoiled to a point, but we are NOT permissive with them.  We have boundaries & they know what they are & they know if the boundaries are crossed, there will be consequences. But that does not stop the horses from pushing them to the breaking point, without actually crossing the line.  

We know our horses, because we did not jump into buying them.  We took our time & found what we wanted & we have kept them & bonded with them.  We do not under buy or over buy & then end up unhappy or out growing them.  We do not simply sell them because we are bored with them or because we have allowed them to get bad habits that we do not know how to deal with.

Anyway, sorry to babble on, but THIS IS AN EXCELLENT QUESTION!!!!!

*EDIT*

I like my name!  How many girls or women do you know with my name?

*EDIT*

VERY well said John!  You are something you know that?

*EDIT*

American, I agree...We never stop learning!

Answer 3

some things you said are true of Parelli are just not.

one calling themselves a NH trainer just because they study PNH? I don't know anyone who does that.  some people call themselves a trainer if they know more than others. I'm sure others who use other methods also call themselves a trainer.

A bad trainer in my opinion is one who does things like tie a horse up and whip them, use such force as to make the horse rear so high and fall over, etc`.  how do they call themselves a trainer. That is what happened to my paint. i use Parelli on her and now she is a fine horse.  I don't call myself a trainer, I just use his methods. some people are so into parelli, it is ridiculus, but not all of us are.

And he doesn't claim to be the creator of the methods he uses. He gives credit to his mentors.

they also use the horsanality (introvert, extrovert) as a way to teach the individual horse, just as with people, some learn by doing, or by seeing or hearing.  It makes perfect sense to use it on horses too.

Answer 4

Wow I really have missed a lot, haven't I? I think you know where I stand on this whole matter but for those who don't, here goes....

I think all this Parelli hype is a phase. All that Parelli has done for the world of horsemanship is slap new name tags on old techniques and then claim them as his own. Parelli is a genius....... At marketing and selling an idea. Nothing more. He is a good horseman in his own but the idea that if you follow his techniques you'll be just as good as him one day is ridiculous. Even the idea that the average person would have enough MONEY to follow his technique that far is crazy.

There are plenty of trainers and instructors out there who don't use fear and mechanics and instead horse phsycology. Just because they don't call themselves "natural horsemanship" trainers does not mean they are 'cruel' or 'abusive' in their training method. Not all techniques work for every horse and I've heard parelli himself say that.

I could sit here and go on and on about my opinion of it all but in the end it doesn't matter. People are going to do what they want, follow who they want and if his loyal followers truly believe that no other technique can be useful or positive it's their loss, not mine.

Answer 5

in my experience talking with a lot of professional trainers they also get the same attitude from the NH crowd.the problem that i get  is that everyone thinks a "cowboy"uses intimidation and cruel tactics to get a horse to submit to our will when it is actually the opposite.like i have said before horses have been trained by humans for over 2000 years and during that time there has been nothing that hasn't been tried when training a horse but the only thing you need to overcome is the fear that a horse has and use his own mind to accept and look forward to learn new things.using force and cruel methods just makes a resentfull horse who fights you every step of the way.my father and grandfather always taught me that soft hands make smart horses ,to use consistant cues so you dont confuse the horse and always respect your horses because they know a lot more about being a horse than i will ever know.

Answer 6

I've read the same thing...

And some really believe it.  I know what I know...*did that make sense?*  My horse do not fear me or behave out of fear or intimidation on my part.

My grandfather taught me alot...then I take some of 'here' some of 'there' and use what works for the horse.  

Not me...the horse...

I actually went to a Ray Hunt Clinic once...merely as a spectator so I didn't have to pay the $450 fee for entering with a horse.  I paid $25 to listen and watch.  I 'heard' what I already knew from my grandfather.  Glad I didn't pay the whole amount.  I would have been mad that I didn't get anything new...except greeting in person...someone 'famous.'

Whatever...I'll stick to my yard and pastures and I KNOW I am not a bad trainer for my horses.  My world does not revolve around what people 'assume' of me.  If they want to be pigheaded...then we really have nothing to talk about.  To assume that I use fear, intimidation, and pain simply because I do not follow their ways...is stupid and uneducated.

**EDIT...me and hubby escaped to the beach for some 'recharging.'  We're winding up an electrical job and it's been dog hot for days.  The beach was perfect to cool off and recharge ourselves...

Answer 7

.Well, according to that logic I would be a horrible trainer.  I have never once done ANYTHING "natural horsemanship" wise, but I've been training for 5 years and all of my horses have been successes...

I was also taught by real worthwhile trainers and I LISTEN to the horse and just do what I feel the horse needs and it works... I guess that's NH... (I really don't know, I don't really know much of anything about it...) but it works for me... I feel no need to run around with big balls (lol, sorry) and ride my horses bareback with out a bridle or halter or find out his personality (introvert etc etc etc) .. But I trust him with my life...

I just think that people think that Parelli is "the way" and the fact that it is easily accessed by so many people makes it dangerous-people can go watch a video and be a PP trainer.. while the rest of us train for years and work with hundreds of horses before we're considered a pro trainer.

It’s the same thing with breeds... people like what they like, think what they think, and unfortunately can say whatever they want.

And to be honest, when I was looking for barns on the internet if it talked about "we only practice NH the (whatever trainer) way" I would just stop looking at the site, I don't think that you need to spend so much time working with your horse on the ground, and I don't want a bunch of followers yelling at me for (god forbid) RIDING MY HORSE!

But still, the only knowledge I have of NH is from what I have heard hear, and the "games" I’ve seen played on you tube...

Maybe it’s the same way for the PP followers; they just don't know another way so they assume stuff.

and to be honest, there are a lot of scary bad trainers out there... so it’s probably just another generalization...

...I swear they're going to tear the horse world apart

EDIT:  but where was the comment made about the rest of us being mean?

Answer 8

**edit**  Please people, Natural Horsemanship (NH) does not mean PARELLI.  There are more ways of NH than him!!!!  Don't lump all NH into that category!******

I don't know how the others train I just know how I do it.  The way I do it just kinda fits into the description of 'natural horsemanship'.

Playing stupid games is not one of them either.

Parelli is not the founder of natural horsemanship.  Don't think that his way is the ONLY way of 'natural horsemanship'.

I absolutely cannot stand any of the Parellis and loathe the ones that insist that his way is the only way.  Sorry folks...I don't like cults.  I like to think for myself.  

Ignore the Parelli crew.  You do what YOU feel comfy in and what works best for you and your horse.

I pick and choose different ideas as one particular idea may not work in my situation.  I may have to try 3 or 4 before reaching my goal.

If I had to worship a particular clinician it would be ummmm...hmmmm...well hmmm...

Ken McNabb or Craig Cameron or Julie Goodnight....or...Joe Wolter...or John Lyons  (and I don't feel he preaches like others do.  Lots of cowboys have religion.  He aint pushing his beliefs on me like Parelli and cult do)

Oh heck...too friggin many I like!

So...you do what you like and what works for you.

My training is more in tune to the horses thought process.

I guess yours is more of the mechanical art of riding.

When I need riding experts I ask YOU and people like you.

If you are having an issue with his mental state then bring it back to the ground and ask people like US  :)

see, we work together as a team.  :)

Answer 9

You NEVER saw him on TV.  He NEVER held a seminar and when I met him he was in his late 70's and STILL could work a horse better than most "trainers".

His name was Roy Traylor and when I met him he was established in Norco, CA.  His girlfriend had just been killed a few mos before in a freak horse wreck.  He was the guy that if you have a "tough" horse, you sent it out to him.  Jimmy Williams had done so for decades.  I was introduced to him by a friend of mine who was then in her 40's and had schooled under Roy as a kid in Eagle Rock.  His methods were unorthodox in comparison today's methods but not unkind.  He got the job done.  He was bruitily honest and didn't hold back the punches.  He also was the first trainer I'd ever seen use a hoist on his horses that were a bit rank.  

Then there was Toni Oppleguard who owned a stable called the Lucky B in Lakewood, CA (I think).  I remember her being the FIRST trainer who actually explained "why" you did things and it really made sense.

Out of the scores of trainers I worked with and under, those two were the ones that really set impressions.  They were more "get the job done" than just talk up a big story.

I try to use the best points of every trainer I ever rode for or under when I teach my kids.  Hopefully, they retain it and continue on.

Answer 10

Eqqus...Parelli doesn't mean squat to me....many of my reference points come from trainers using old vaquero methodologys....the working cow horse group.

I think it's time for some logic.....why would a person rough up a horse in this day and age and expect it to amount to anything? (competitive)   A trainer would ruin more horses than he'd help AND the cow horses now are better bred, better minded and certainly more costly than at any other time.  A trainer in this day and age, would not be in business for long if word got out he was abusive to his horses......Horse people TALK and word gets;

.....I think people are getting overly emotional over this NH thing.

People need to acquaint themselves with nationally known trainers and observe their methods of training before making false accusations......or assuming anything...what's the old saying about "assuming"...don't make an a&& of you and me.   Yet they'll run their mouths and say nasty things about people and make wicked judgements when they haven't observed a thing and know even less.

When I look for a trainer, I'm looking for a horseman, someone whose been in the business for a very long time, is successful in the show pen at national and world levels, is held in high regard by his peers, treats his customers fairly, takes superb care of his client horses, and someone who comes with impecable credentials...these trainers are out there, two or three of them are friends of mine and I hold them in very high regard.  One of them is the top cow horse trainer in the nation and his father is a living legend.   As I stated earlier, their methods involve vaquero principles and training.   They'd never be where they are now if they employed cruel training principles and ruined a bunch of client horses.....that doesn't even begin to pencil out!!!!!  Where is the logic?  There isn't any.  

Why anyone would accuse you of being a bad trainer....have any one of them seen a horse that you've trained or heard any of the accolades headed your way....I sincerely doubt it.

Just a bunch of part time snipers and harpies with nothing else to do but run you down and run anyone else down who doesn't agree with them.....i.e., you're not in the Parelli camp lying in the mud with the rest of the over 50 late to it horse owners whose hearts go pitter pat over some NH method of the "Seven Games'".....

Edit:  My training "responsibilities" are to keep my horses at a level where they are highly functioning...i.e., we have a reminder session or two on all the things that they know, they're kept tuned up, and kept in shape....both are very well mannered horses with a good work ethic....individuals have commented on their good manners..."how can they be that way"? ...and it's just something we practice everyday....similar to "please and thank you" on a three year old little person.  I do love it that they come when they're called or whistled for.

I use  different training methods....choosing only those methods that have been demonstrated to me that really work.

Answer 11

Every horse is different!  Some need a more aggressive approach and others  do just fine with an easy going approach.

Also, training is something that you need to be born with in your blood. You have to be able to read the horse and know what he's going to do before he does. I've never liked the real heavy hand, I hated watching my Dad initiate it.  But I have also seen the end results after my dad had won the battle.  After all that, he'd go right back to the easy going way and finish a great horse or mule.

Different horses need different methods depending on their temperament.

Good luck  to you on your choosing!

Answer 12

I'm not too sure were it puts me... I like to use all kinds of different ways. But I was taught by my mother & it was be for these trainers you see today. So they just learn how to resale old tricks. But she was not into  throwing horses down. If some people think I am bad trainer it is not sweat off my back. I know my levels & if I am over my head I am not afrid to ask someone who knows more then me. Then I will hope to learn from it. Lord knows I have a lot more to learn!! LOL

***edit****

Eqquus~~~ I agree with you!!!!

Answer 13

lol the guy who trained my horses was never advertised, you just heard of him by word of mouth.....so far from anything NH you could get and look my horses are mentally scarred beyond belief, the curl up in the foetal position every night and whinny themselves to sleep. They are explosive and have an eating complex, they trust no one and blame everything on the world. they are manipulative and demanding and hunt down and kill small children. and it's all because he didn't use the carrot stick!

EDIT

I love how we can disagree with Gallop and yet not thumb him down ..i believe it shows maturity

LOL E I'll buy a Beach