How does this make any sense?

Question

A direct quote from an answer on this forum:

"God doesn't make miracles like this, and not be able to put children in the right "tummy." The rosie o donnel' "god put my baby in the wrong tummy" card doesn't work with me. If God can create miracles like some of us believe he does, i think he'd know who's uterus to put the child in."

So what about all the children who are neglected, abused, sexually assaulted, used in slave labour, child soldiers, starved to death, etc. Were they put in the 'right' uterus?

Was a child born to the 'right' mother, even when that same woman turns around and kills him or her?

Adoption aside, looking at the 'nurture vs nature' argument, how does that seem right?

Answer 1

joseph married mary, the mother of jesus, back in the day when a pregnant, unwed mother was an "abomination". god went to joseph and told him to marry this woman. he didn't tell mary to give her child away. god set the precedence for unmarried, pregnant women. keep your child. don't give it away.

Answer 2

Jesus, Mary and Joseph!  Have we crossed over into religion and spirituality?  Mother of God!  When did adoption become a religious debate, for Christ's sake?  

(I do happen to be a Christian, Catholic for that matter, so like any good Catholic, I'm allowed to curse and take the Lord's name in vain as much as I feel is necessary...jk!)

As far as debates go, this one has been beaten more than a hundred dead horses.  Are you really dragging out the "why does God let bad things happen in the world" argument?  Don't waste your time.  It's a paradox, no one has ever figured out why.

Answer 3

What isn't right is telling any child that 'God put you in the wrong tummy'  What a terrible thing to say to a child!

Answer 4

God doesn't do that it all started when the people turned ur perfect world upside down!

Answer 5

I'm a Christian, and I was also adopted.  And, I also don't believe every single word written in the bible, but more or less form my own beliefs and opinions.  

I don't believe that there are any accidents or any mistakes.  Due to human or biological (not spiritual) error, some women cannot reproduce naturally.  This does not mean that they don't have what it takes to be a mother, and it doesn't mean that they should never experience motherhood.  There are a lot of "undeserving women" that become pregnant only to neglect or abuse a child and THAT is a tragedy, however...some of these women have the aptitude to realize that they cannot raise this child and would like to give their gift of life to another woman and family that can.  That child comes to her to teach her a lesson about herself, to help her learn that lesson whatever it may be, and to truly bless that couple that desperately wants a baby.  Perhaps the test of a good parent is to have them be barren and see how much they really do desire to have a child...perhaps this makes them better parents because they know that longing and appreciate that gift of life more.  I hold nothing against my birth mother for giving me up for adoption.  She had a lesson to learn from it, and I hope that she has found peace and moved on to be happy.  My parents are wonderful people who would have been devestated if my brother and I had not come into their lives.  My mother desperately wanted a child, and knew before she married my father that it wasn't possible.  Out of love for my father and the relationship they had she selflessly married him and found an alternative way to have children.  I don't think a loving God did anything but smile on her for that decision---to love my father unconditionally even though he could not give her a child.  He blessed her with my brother and I, and I could not be happier about that.  I don't think that babies are put in the wrong tummy---I think they are placed where they are for a reason, and that God does have a hand in adoption because it is a selfless and loving commitment.

God blesses women with children---it IS a blessing!  If the woman does not do right by that child, it is her freewill that dictates that, not God's.  If she abuses that little life, she will answer to him.

Answer 6

I'm not Christian so let me try to reason this out. God is supposedly infallible and omnipotent until it comes to the barren wombs and testicles of His followers. God is a living God only until someone feels they have been done some injustice and then His followers gleefully throw His teachings out the proverbial window. Goddess how glad I am to have found you.

As a good little x-tian many can "feel" pity for those less fortunate and show "mercy" to them as well. Yet they can not pity themselves and show mercy to their own shortcomings. God has NO place in the adoption "triad". Period.

Answer 7

So are you saying that it would be better for those childeren to never have been born at all? Never givin a chance at life? Ever life is a miricle. I had a horrible childhood but if I didn't go threw that I wouldn't be were I am today.

And when I say a bad childhood I mean the works.

Although I still have alot of issues to get threw It's a miricle to me that I have survied and became such a strong person. I have thick skin yes but it has only perpared me to not be so nyeve and to get threw the real world as we know it today. I was almost killed on occacion but I thank God ever day for my life and I'm so blessed that I was broght into this world. This may not make much sence to anyone, but it makes me lift my head everyday and enjoy what comes my way, even if there is a road block on my path.

PS> sorry for the bad spelling

Answer 8

I think it is dangerous to attribute anything to God.  Not because it isn't possible that God has something to do with it all, but because we are unable to see the whole picture.  

For example, your question begs others.  Was it God's plan that some children be left with abusive parents?  Was it God's plan that some children be adopted by abusive parents?  Is it God's plan that millions of children starve every day?  In other words, why does God rescue some from pain, suffering, and death, but not others?  Is God fickle?  Does God like some people better than others?  Did these children do something awful in a past life that justifies their current situation?  

I think that the problem of evil is likely too big a question to solve on the Adoption board of Yahoo! Answers.

Answer 9

I totally disagree. Every child is a MIRACLE.. There are no mistakes. Some people are not cut out to be a parent and others are. A child never asked to be born to this parent or that parent. It happened. What the parent chooses to do and how to raise the child is on that person. I think its wrong to neglect, abuse a child. They are so innocent they no nothing. It is up to the parent to teach that child. Every child needs to have nurturing and guidance.

Answer 10

I believe in free will.  So, no, I don't believe God plays a part in what leads up to adoption.  I do, however, believe He answers prayers and plays a part in bringing guidance and solutions to those who ask for help.

Of course, you need to actually believe in God in the first place, to understand this.

Answer 11

This is sorta a different look at the same problem.  

My son's father left us when my son was 8 months old.  He also abandoned a (then) 3-year-old daughter (with me - but she was not "mine" legally) who was very ill at the same time.  This was less than a year after our marriage made saving his little girl's life possible.  Even with that, she'll still be handicapped forever.  

When I met my son's father, I felt God pushing me towards him...  into it, even when I wanted to go the other way.  I gave up, and through myself into the relationship with a whole heart, and for a while it looked like God knew what he was doing.  But...  in the end..  it all crumbled.  Was God wrong after all?  

I don't think so.  I think God is giving people chances.  He gave my ex a chance to make things right in his life.  My ex just didn't manage to continue to take advantage of it.  It wasn't a mistake that my son was conceived the way he was.  That's the way God would have LIKED things to work out.  They didn't, so now God will move on to an alternate plan.  They're all God's plans, so they all have the potential for miraculous and happy endings.  

This sounds contradictory in many ways, but it really works out in my mind.  I think children are put places where God wants a chance to be taken.  He weeps for the children harmed (and all good souls weep with him, and try to undo the harm if we can), and in the end, many times trajedy sends children home to him faster than he wished.  Remember though, they are going home to God.  

The kids weren't put into the "wrong" uterus, but the uterus wasn't the only potential mother God had in mind.  If that one would have worked out, great!  If not...  that's where the adoptive mother comes in.

Answer 12

I don't like the "wrong tummy" thing because if my a'parents had told me that I would have felt I were a mistake made by god.  Not good for the self-esteem.

I also don't like at all that Rosie calls her childrens' birth mothers--to the childrens' faces, mind--"tummy ladies."  It suggests to me that she has no respect for the birth mothers as people and is pretty much telling her kids they came from human incubators.  It's not nice.

I don't believe there are "right tummies" any more than there are "wrong ones."  The journey I took to get in the family I was raised in was neither wrong nor right, it simply was.  There wasn't any great, Divine-guided plan behind it.

Answer 13

Bottom line is this..using the term "miracle" to describe adoption may be fine for some and may offend some. I do not believe that God put me in the wrong tummy. That is kinda of offensive. I was born to who I was born. God had no hand in that. Nor do I think God wants millions of children to suffer in orphanges around the world. Or that he purposely put them there so people could adopt them. That would make God out to be cold and unloving, the exact opposite of what the bible describes. The bible describes God as merciful,loving, a lover of righteousness, forgiving and a God of justice. Now what God loves and appericates is people that step up and use their lives for the better. To love him and follow his principals. Can adoption do that? Yes, because it is loving when two people reach out and take in a child to raise who may not of been in the best situation. Is adoption merciful? Yes and no. For adoptive parents they feel that are being merciful by opening up their home. For some birth mothers it may be unmericful because they gave up their child. There are ways to justify adoption without saying that God put a child into the wrong tummy.

Answer 14

For one thing people are not able to understand the implications of s*x. All whom are here are not in the ideal situations. There is a group called amnesty international trying to get the people of all the earth to do away with slavery and unnecessary imprisonment.

http://www.amnesty.org/

This is how to get involved and see the good they do in the world. There are so many tragic stories and there is no way i could begin to start.

€€Abuse is a true tragedy of manunkind. We need to as a society give children of abuse in any form a forum to be heard without the fear of retaliation from abusers.

Nuture is the most important thing to end the epidemic of mental illness such as depression and anxiety. People bring their own phobias and anxieties onto their children and it is hard to discern it from genetic predispositions.

I was abused by raging alcholics and suffered with depression for many years and no meds were effective at all. My depression came from being abused and repressed from life by a domineering father and a raging mother. I have learned to overcome the depression through staying busy and helping others. That is my true nature and I had to overcome antinuturing parents. What God has to do with it; I have no idea. I was on a journey once that told me much about that and you can read it on my profile in the question: What is the most beautiful thing you ever saw?

Answer 15

Feel free to personally call me out by name next time. :)

the above quote is mine and makes sense to me.

What I'm trying to say, without offending anyone which i've found is near impossible in discussions of God because we all have our own faiths. Is that God has no hand in adoption.

To believe that God made a "mistake" in where he put a baby to me is foolish because the God I have read about in the bible doesn't make mistakes. I guess it ultimately depends on what you believe and what God you worship if any.

I think God has no hand in adoption. I believe that adoption, in America, the industry I became an adoptee in, definately isn't God lead. if it was, adoptees would have their records, ancestry in the bible is VERY important. Heritage is of signifigant importance in the bible I read.

People are neglected, abused, assaulted verbally, physically and sexually every day in non adoptive homes AND adoptive ones.

My point to this is, to say that God has a hand in ANY of the above discusting acts is .... not a God i would want to worship and dedicate my life too. Perhaps this same God that purposely puts children and people of any age into situations such as the awful ones above has a hand in adoption. I don't know, again thats not any God i would worship.

Did you read the reply in the same thread that said that her baby cried in terror when they brought him home because he didn't know that he could trust his adoptive parents.

have you watched the youtube videos of adoptive parents picking up their children from REAL orphanages overseas and the adoptees don't want anything to do with them?

It feels like you're saying that God put them in that painful life, that painful place JUST so they could be adopted? As if, adoption "saves all." These must be PRETTY SPECIAL PEOPLE that this God is breaking up millions of primal relationships for around the world in order to fullfill their infertile dreams of having a child. How did they get infertility in the first place? did god do that too? Did God go to all of the trouble of inflicting millions of people with infertility, so they could adopt the orphans and adoptees that were born in the wrong tummy all to make up for the fact that he can't put babies in the "right" tummies?

Do you see whats wrong with the logic of thinking that children are born from the wrong tummies. If he(God) can't get babies into the "right" tummies, was Jesus born to the "right" mother? or was Mary the wrong one? Does that mean that God can only get it right "sometimes?" or just when he feels like it?

do you think that if there was a God, who could create miracles such as separating seas, turning water into blood, impregnating women without the "traditional" ways, who's son could heal people by the touch of a hand, or the speaking of words of faith, are you saying that this same God would accidently impregate the wrong women, inflict her and her child with signifigant loss and pain from losing one another, ALL to fullfill the dreams of a hopeful adoptive couple?

I don't speak for God. I don't do Gods miracles, but it doesn't take Mother Theresa to see that the logic in thinking that children are "born from the wrong tummy" makes little sense.

Using God in any of these instances and especially adoption is a cop out in my opinion. Adopters aren't saints, children aren't "better off" with adoptive parents compared to first families. Infact, i've read statistics that say quite the oppposite. Adoptive parents don't automatically provide better lifestyles for children just because.... bad things happen in many homes adoptive and not adoptive. To say that "god" created the miracle of adoption, makes little sense to me.

In order for ANY adoption to have taken place, a great loss has been endured. No matter what for adoption to happen, a loss has happened. To thank GOD for that adoption, would ultimately be thanking GOD for the loss that happened so that the "adoption" could happen.

It doesn't say anywhere in the bible to rape me of my heritage because my mother didn't parent me. It says to care for the "orphans" but our society isn't caring for the orphans they're profitting and benefitting off of them to fullfill their own un-Godly ( in my opinion ) needs.

"They" are taking the orphans, not treating them right and falling victim to the ways of the world by going with the flow of this terrible, terrible adoption industry.  Which, is exactly what the "bible" says NOT to do.

Answer 16

Gersh had a lot of it right.  I think God guides many of us.  How he does it is mysterious i.e. God works in mysterious ways.   I do believe God does create miracles.  

I just don't think that adoption is one of them.  I know that some of us lucked out and some of us haven't.  I do believe that God guides my actions and my thoughts.  I believe that its time for truth in adoption.  

As far as abuse in the world, where there is corruption you have children hurt.  

As far as nature vs. nurture, I am a combination of both.  I just want to understand my nature side.

Answer 17

quite honestly, the "wrong tummy" theory was perpetuated by infertile women as an attempt to marginalize something unattainable to them. and by the profiteers of adoption to use as a marketing tool to rationalize the adoption practice.

as for the miracle-argument post: i purposefully did not post a comment out of respect that the author of the question wanted only aparents to response.  see, i do read and play nicely :-)

but...  i must say that the miracle argument associated with adoption is a bit offensive.  i saw the bmoms in my "pre-placement support" group  who relinquished being torn about how much to tell us about the pain (the counselors monitored the bmom support groups and urged the bmoms not to talk too much about regretting their decision to the pregnant girls).  i remember running into a girl at the grocery store while i was buying diapers telling me that she wish she's known how much it would hurt.  i've read bmom blogs and spoke to bmoms about how they felt lied to and coerced.  

so, i'm having a difficult time seeing how it's a miracle. absent form all the "celestial, spiritual, metaphysical and serendipity" yadda yadda; i really think that anything that involves loss, is not a miracle.  simply a situation that benefited one party.  

also, can we stop with using abuse as an rationale for adoption and wrong uteruses...?  we all know that most of these children are not included in the "miracle discourse!" also, it diminishes the abuse (and it does happen) in adoptive families.

personally, i think ALL CHILDREN are miracles. not just the ones who are relinquished for adoption.

EDIT:

"God is supposedly infallible and omnipotent until it comes to the barren wombs and testicles of His followers."--wow, those are words i might have to plagiarize!!! andraya, you are my hero...

Answer 18

I really dont understand what is beign said here but I do have a comment to make.

GOD does not make mastakes.

You have to remember that people are giving a choice and man is evil.  If  we dont work to change the cycle then we would all be that way.  I may get alot of boo about this but that is the way I feel.  We as humans choose the path we are going to take.  Even if that is hurting our children or others.

Answer 19

Interesting question.   Unlike others, I do believe that God has a hand in adoption.  I do not, however, believe that God places children in "wrong" tummies.  Let me explain.

God is blamed for a lot of things.  The reality is that God gave us all free will.  He has agreed to basically let us make our own decisions and will love us despite whether we make a mistake or succeed.  He sent His only son to die for those sins.  Free will is what causes us to sin - it is what causes terrible things to happen.  Do I believe that God wants to destroy a family when they experience a fire?  No.  Do I believe that God wanted 9/11 to happen?  Absolutely NOT.  But do I believe that God is there to help pick up the pieces after events like this occur?  YES!  Do I believe that God sends "miracles" to help after things like this?  YES.  

My husband & I could not have children.  I struggled with my Christian beliefs because of the implication of the Bible that marriage is to procreate.  How is it then that God would make any woman, happily married, infertile?  I came to understand that God did not make me infertile, but rather had other plans for me.  I absolutely believe that God had a hand in my son's birth family finding me.  We hadn't even started thinking seriously about adoption when I received the phone call.  So to suddenly receive a phone call out of the clear blue, yes, I do believe it was a gift from God.

I've struggled spiritually with some of the answers to past questions where I've been accused of being self-centered for using the term "miracle of adoption".  For us, it was a miracle.  For others, it may not have been.  Miracles do not necessarily happen in the same way for everyone.  Perhaps an adoptee who does not feel their adoption is a miracle, will go on to help us win the reforms desperately needed in adoption.  Could that be considered a "miracle"?  Yes to some.  Perhaps to the child who someday does not have to fight for their bio info, it will be a "miracle" that someone fought for reform.  What some people see as a miracle, others may not.  Are all adoptions miracles?  No - I believe that some people are taken advantage of by someone else's sin.  Just as a drunk driver who takes a life, there are bad people out there in the system that take children from parents or coerce parents into doing things they do not want.  God sees this and is there to help pick up the pieces if we ask Him.  Does it make it easier?  Not by a long shot, but faith makes things possible, not easy.

I've seen on this board where people feel birth is a miracle.  Does that mean that God feels I am not deserving of a miracle because I am infertile?  Or does it mean that a Mother who has a child with a life threatening disorder is less deserving of a miracle because she does not have a "healthy" child?  Miracles are in the eye of the beholder.  

I believe everything happens for a reason.  Many do not.  But for me, I continue to believe that our family was created through nothing less than a miracle.  Is that meant to offend others?  No.  It simply means that I praise the Lord for my family and the way in which it was formed and the gift that He gave to me the day He sent my son into my arms.