How to make pygmy goats bigger?

Question

A judge told me all my goats were way too small. I don't know what happened. Last year one of my goats got grand champion, and this year she got last place, with the same judge. I know they dont have worms, I deworm them every 3 months. I just dont know what to do.

Answer 1

Contact the judge or someone else that has seen your goats and is knowledgeable about the breed.  Your problem is either nutritional or breeding.  If it's lack of condition you need to work on your feed quality.  If it's breeding, that is a harder fix, but you need to find a larger sized buck and breed in some more size.

Answer 2

You can tell if your goats hove worms if they are loosing weight or if your goat's coat is rough looking. You can also tell by looking at their gums or eyelids. If the gums and eye lids are nice and pink they don't have worms. If their eye lids and gums are pale your goats might have worms and may need to be medically evaluated. If you see white your goat needs to be looked at immediately by a vet. Vet experts say that many goat sudden deaths are caused by worms. Again I recommend that you talk to your vet about how to worm your goat and what medications to use because it varies in different parts of the country.

Answer 3

You do need to state "how" they are too small...height, weight.

I will tell you the way you are worming is not a good way to do it.  Your goats probably DO have worm loads.

To break the worm cycle:

Worm goats (usually vaccinate and trim hooves also)

Three weeks later, worm again, and give second vaccination to all young goats (adults only needed on booster shot).

Three weeks after that, worm for third and final time.

Worming three times, every three weeks actually breaks the worm cycle.  

Otherwise with worming once, every three months, you are getting all the worms in the animals gut, but you do not touch the eggs.  Once the worms in the gut are killed, more eggs hatch and repopulate the gut.  Most worm eggs hatch in 14-21 days.  

Getting wormer into the goat three time, three weeks appart makes it so non of the worms mature enough to lay a fresh batch of eggs.  Instead you kill all the eggs as they hatch.

I do this for my goats twice a year.  Once as they enter winter feed corrals (I live where winters are long and brutal), and again as right before they are going to be turned out to pasture.

If you only have a few goats, it is also a good idea to worm any doe right after she gives birth.  The same hormones that the does body release to get the kids ready for birth, also signal the worms in her body to go nuts and mature very, very quickly.  She is then releasing scads of worms in her manure.  This is the worms way of making sure they are able to infect the next generation (baby goats nibble on their dams manure).

By the way, nibbling on the manure is a catch .22.  The baby goats recieves much needed benificial bacteria for their gut, so they will actually be able to digest vegtable matter.  Without that bacteria, they would not be able to gain any benifit from the grass, hay, ect they eat.  But it also populates their gut with worms...so worm the mother right after she gives birth.

Are your pygmy goats within the breed standard for height?  Or was the judge looking for a goat with a fatter body?  A lot of those show judges like to see a much fatter animal than I do (in any livestock, from cow, horses, goats, ect).  

If the judge wants to see more height, choose a buck that will provide that next breeding.

Good luck showing.

~Garnet

Homesteading/Farming over 20 years

Raising meat goats since 1999

Since they are small all the way around, it makes me suspicious you might have a coccidia problem.  The short and "sweet" on coccidia is that it destroys the intestinal lining in an animals gut.  The intestines is where the animals body actually accepts/takes/digests the neutriants from its food.  If the lining is harmed, deystroyed, or having problems, the animal is actually starving no matter how much food it eats.

Do you breed the goats yourself, or are you buying from someone else?

Do the kids nurse off their mother, until the mother weans them, or are they force weaned?

Do you bottle raise them?  If so, what brand of formula are you using, and is it for kids, not lambs?

Do your goats have mineral & salt blocks?

Do they have mineral & protien tubs?

Have your goats, especially the young ones around weaning time, had blackish diahrea?

I almost forgot to get back to your question!  It's kidding time on my farm, and I've been pretty busy.

Since you breed yourself, and allow the mothers to self wean, that's excelent...the babies are not having stress being transported to a new farm, or with being force weaned.

I think your stating that the kids had black diahrea three days ago....that's bad.  The black diahrea can be a sign of coccida.

Here's a link to a very good article on coccidia in goats (so I don't have to type so much):

http://www.goatworld.com/articles/coccid...

If I were you, I'd have a trip to the Vet's if you have a goat having black diahrea (not the black p**p of newborns however).  The Vet can do a swab, and run a test.

If you have coccidia problems, you may wish to concider medicated feed, or medicated  protien tubs.  The problem with using the medicated tubs however is that your goats then build up NO immunity to coccidia.  WARNING: THE MEDICATION FOR GOAT COCCIDIA IS TOXIC TO HORSES!!!!!

Coccidia destroys the lining of the intestines, which is where the food is actually absorbed.  Since they cannot absorb food correctly, the goats can become very stunted.

The article I linked gives tips on how to help prevent it.  

If they are not already, make sure they eat of hay racks, not the ground.  They are much more likely to have an outbreak of coccidia if they are eating from the ground.  Make sure pastures are not overgrazed.  Keep their water clean, and nanny nuget free (amazing how they back up to a freshly cleaned water trough and p**p, isn't it?).

For the amount of hay, I'm actually a rather poor person to advise you on that matter.  I raise meat goats.  My goats are either pregnant, about to become pregnant, or nursing AND pregnant.  I keep hay in front of their noses 24/7.  I feed one ton bales at a time, in keyhole feeders my husband built.  

Remember though...my does are very productive, kidding twice a year, ever year.  That much hay would probably make a more average goat fat.  I'm feeding high quality alfalfa to boot.

If you have access to a hay that is still clean and good quality, but not the "hot" feed that alfalfa is, I'd try keeping it at your goats noses 24/7.  It's very normal for goats to be eating almost all day long.  It makes them happy, and their bodies very health.  It's normal for their body to be processing all that fiber constantly.

I notice you didn't say anything about grain.  That's WONDERFUL!  Grain is not a natural food for goats.  It messes with the PH in the goats rumen and can shut it down altogether.  Also grain is a HIGHLY concintrated form of food.  It allows the goat to meet all of their nutritional needs with just a tiny amount of food.  This causes "welfare goats."

When goats are young, they need to learn to eat, and eat a LOT.  They need to stuff that rumen.  You should be able to see the rumen bulging on the left side of the goat, after they have just eaten.  Goats that develop their rumen to proper size via eating a lot of fiber, like hay, do very well.  Goats that have a tiny rumen, because they are depant on grain to meet their needs do not do very well (welfare goats).

If you find that it is not coccidia, or any other disease problem your Vet can find, think about getting another buck.

Get the largest buck you can find, with the qualities you are looking for in your breeding program.  Of course make sure he is still within the legal limits for pygmy goats, but on the large side.

I have to go check on my kids now....I'd be happy to answer more questions if you have any.

The CD&T is also the only thing I give my babies & of course the adults for their booster.  I believe in raising the goats as naturally as possible.  Since my winters are harsh, and I have to confine them to a corral for winter feeding, I need to worm.  If I could keep them moving like wild animals over miles of open land, they would develop few worms.  Since I have horses, and they come in contact with bits of wire here and there, it's important i protect them against tetanus.

The young males are always sold before they are six months old.  They never get any vaccines, or worming.  I try to keep the meat animals as drug free as humanely possible, while still looking out for their health and saftey.

By the way, on the CD&T, don't bother giving it to a baby younger than 4 weeks old.  You might as well shoot the vaccine strait onto the ground for all the good it's going to do.  The mothers colostrum is still too strong in the babies body.  Even though she only produced colostrum for the first 24 hours, the possitive, protective effects stay in babies body.  If you give them the vaccine, the antibodies from the colostrum kick in, and prevent the vaccine from having any effect.  Wait until they are four weeks old to begin their vaccines.

Other things I forgot to mention on the minerals.  Goats of course need copper.  Very important mineral for the health of the goats.  That's why you shouldn't feed things, minerals, or formula, that is for sheep, or sheep/goats.  

Copper is toxic to sheep.  Goats need a great deal of it.  Minerals/licks, ect that are for sheep contain almost no copper (sheep need only a very tiny amount).  

I've also found the health, vigor, and size of my kids improved when I offered them iodized salt blocks with cobalt.  Cobalt seems to be another important trace mineral the goats need.  It can be very hard to get the feed stores to order the cobalt blocks for you.  You will know for sure if they ordered the correct thing though...they will be bright blue, about the color of the blue on Pepsi cans.

I offer my goats a selection of salts and minerals.  It's allways there, for them to partake of as they want.  

I have iodized salt...that block will be pinkish

Iodized salt with cobalt...that block will be bright blue

trace minerals with selenium...that block will be yellowish.

I feed them in the 50 pound blocks.

You will find the goats go after different blocks, at different times.  A doe who's pregnant may go wild over the cobalt, but ignore it at all other times.

The 50 pound blocks are a bit of a pain to get to where you want them, but once in place (if protected from rain) should last you years.  Salt/mineral blocks are $6-$12 depending on what type of 50 pound block it is.

Do NOT feed the yellow blocks with sulfur.  Some people believe it helps keep flies away....that is a wives tail.  I've forgotten what now, but the sulfur actually depletes something in the goats body, so stay away from the sulfur blocks.

Also do some research on your own, about the minerals in the soil your local area has.  Of course if your goats are on an all hay diet, it's the minerals that are in the soil where the hay is grown that are important.

It kind of lets you know what your goats may be lacking.  Warning though, that type of research can be frustrating in the extreme!  I live in an area that shows on all the maps that it is an extremely low selenium area.  Yet we have billboards up about how selenium from the mining that goes on around here kills livestock.

I use Nutri-Drench too, but only for a couple of things.  First, I keep it on hand, if I ever have a doe go into shock after giving birth, because her blood sugar has dropped too much, AKA Ketosis.

Here are some good articles on it:

http://www.goatworld.com/articles/ketosi...

You only have about 15 minutes to save a does life if she goes into ketosis.  It's a very fast death.  This is one of the reasons I put the protien/molassis/mineral tubs out for the goats, when they are near kidding time.  I've never yet had a goat go into ketosis (knock on wood).  

The Nutri-Drench is absorbed very quickly, and can help restore a does blood sugar level.  

The other reason I keep it around is to help boost a kid that has become chilled, and/or orphaned by it's mother.

Mostly however I prefer NOT to give that huge boost of sugar (unless it is medically needed).  Too much sugar messes with the PH, and the bacteria in a goats rumen, and can shut it down....they you can end up with another serrious problem of bloat, in which the goat only has a couple of minutes (extremely painful minutes) to live, unless you are willing to stab them through their side, into their rumen and release the built up gas/pressure.  Not something I have ever had to do (preventative messures) nor do I ever want to do.  However I know how, and can do should I need to.

If I have a goat, or kid that is not feeling well, I much prefer to give yogurt with live bacteria.  It really helps repopulate the goats rumen, and intestines with healthy bacteria.  This is really great to do, if your goat had to be on antibiotics for any reason.  You can buy live bacteria yogurt at any grocery store.  I buy it in the big tubs, the plain flavor (no extra sugar).  

Next time your at the grocery store, read the lable on a few of the yogurts, so you find a brand in your local area that will work for you.

For babies, I mix the yogurt with a bit of warm water (but not hot) and get it liquid enough they can nurse it from a bottle.

For adults, I just suck it up, and squirt it in their mouth with a 60CC syringe.  

Suprisingly the goats do not object to the taste too much.  

If you have a goat that is having stomach, or intestinal ailments (like bacterial die off), or an orphan kid, you can also "steal a cud."  Selected your healthiest goat.  Watch for them to burb up their cud and begin to chew it.  Reach in with your fingers quickly, and steal all the matter in their mouth you can.  The hay, or grass is covered with saliva, and all the good gut bacteria.  Now stick it in the mouth of your ill goat, or orphaned baby.

This is actually pretty important to do for orphans.  Normal baby goats, steal a few blade of grass here and there, and whisps of hay from their mothers mouth, as well as nibbling on her p**p.  This populates their rumen with the bacteria they need to be able to digest the hay, and other vetatative matter.  If you notice babies nibble on hay and stuff almost right away, but they do not actually lay down and start to chew their cud until they are a few months old.  It's not until then that their gut has become able to handle, and gain bennifit from the green stuff.

Answer 4

way too small...weight wise or height? If its weight, I would change their diet.  If it is overall too small, breed you female to something a little bigger to increase the size of your kids.

Answer 5

Are you sure on the wormer doseage? With goats they should get 2X the cattle dose.

Do they have access to minerals and salt?

Do they have problems with lice and need dusting?

Answer 6

Ask another judge!

Could be the judge was having a bad day.  Compare vet records and weight from last year to this year and see if they are in fact "smaller"

Answer 7

Too small?  Tell the judge "THEY'RE PYGMY GOATS!"

Seriously, keep in mind that while there are breed standards, a LOT of judging is personal preference.  I've seen some judges that were quite fair and some that were obviously biased towards the breed or breeder.

Size is a trap many goat, sheep and cattle people have fallen into.  I remember when the average weight for adult Angus cows was 800-900 pounds.  Now 1200-1300 pounds is very common with many bigger than that.  Big isn't always better and when it comes to animals that are easy keeping, feed efficient and profitable, smaller animals are the ones.  It doesn't matter whether you're talking cows, sheep or goats.  I tell grazing clients I work with, "Big cows give birth to big calves one day a year, but they have big appetites 365 days a year."  

My sheep wouldn't go anywhere at a fair.  They have big bellies and are shaped like a battleship, nothing like the wiener dog sheep seen at fairs, shows and FFA-4-H competition.  Put those wiener sheep with their tiny bellies out on poor pasture, and they will literally starve to death.  I've seen it.  With their big bellies, my sheep will eat poor grass, rose bushes, weeds and pine trees and stay fat doing it.  

So, if you feel you have good animals that do what you expect of them without causing you a lot of work, cost, grief or headache, don't change just to suit one judge.  Keep in mind that he may have went broke raising goats, so following his advice might cost you money and years of work.

Answer 8

D's response is good.

Your "PIGMY goat is too SMALL (not BIG enough)"?

Tell the judge he is an oxymoron.

Answer 9

4H- FFA?

Many times judges go for the "highest" quality (cost) animals whether the kids buy them or breed them. There is a real problem here with one well to do family who goes out and buys very high quality championship goats while most of the farm kids have raised their own. It's supposed to be a contest for kids, but it actually  ends up being a money contest.  

I have seen the same thing happen in dog shows at 4H where kids with pets are ignored while a family who went a bought a show dog gets all the prizes. We all understand that show dogs are higher quality than pet dogs, but it's not fair to the 400 kids who have pets in the same town.

We just got new judges who looked at other things like how well the children knew their pets, if they cared for them all by themselves, if they spent time training and handling them.  It was a mutual decision through out the organization locally to look at other things than simply money.

I know that doesn't help you in your situation right now, but just understand there is probably NOTHING wrong with your goats.  Many, many times it is a money issue, not a pet issue. And it has to be addressed from the top not from the bottom.

The local 4H has had this problem in many categories from photography to goats.  It does need to be addressed because children should not be taught that buying awards is correct.  Lots of kids have pets/projects that they work very hard on and deserve some awards too.

Answer 10

There are two ways to increase the size of your goats although big pygmy goats is sort of an oxymoron.  You can increase their size by selective breeding and by optimum nutrition.  In selective breeding you pick the largest of your males and breed them to the largest of your females resulting in larger offspring.  Optimum nutrition means supplying those things that increase the growth of the animals.  two key factors would be supplying the right balance of Calcium and Phosphorous for instance to maximize skeletal size.