Hybrid cars (like the Prius and Civic) ~ are they 'greener' and more economic?

Question

I'd love to hear any first hand experience or comments from people who know something about this stuff. Not really interested in debating whether the oil crisis/global warming/etc is real or not, just wanting info about whether I should be thinking hybrid next time I purchase (probably late 2008).

And, does anyone know how long they last? Older fuel guzzlers are still going strong (if you can afford to drive them), do these newer types give good value for money in life span and usage?

Would it be better to bite the bullet on fuel prices (EEK!) and wait a couple of years for a hybrid, or start planning to buy now?

Thanks for any views or reliable information!

Answer 1

y a ya ya

Answer 2

economic

Answer 3

i can't remember where i read it . but i saw something about it taking more energy to make the hybrids , their life span being shorter , and the batteries being a big disposal problem because they pollute so badly . and are quit toxic to make. in what i read i believe i remember it saying that economically a regular car is better over the long hall because you would have to replace the hybrid much sooner.

  i'm sorry i can't remember where i saw it .

Answer 4

They are certainly greener.  It takes a slightly greater amount of energy to make a hybrid than a non-hybrid, but they save so much energy over their lifetime due to their higher fuel economy, overall they're much more environmentally friendly.

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2008/04...

As for economics, it just depends on what you're comparing.  If you're comparing a Prius to a comparable car (say a Camry or Corolla), you'll pay something like an extra $5000 up front, but you'll save about 200 gallons (over $800) of gas per year.  The Prius also has lower maintenance costs, and will have a much higher resale value.

http://autos.yahoo.com/newcars/compariso...

So economically you'll make up the difference in somewhere around 5 years, after which time you'll be saving money, and if you sell the car you'll come out way ahead.  The higher gas prices go, the more valuable a hybrid becomes.

However, it's been said that 2010 is the year to buy a new car, because that's when several new technologies are scheduled to come out.  There will be plug-in hybrids (like the Chevy Volt, plug-in Prius) and fully electric cars available then, so you may want to hold off for a couple years.

http://green.yahoo.com/blog/ecogeek/459/...

Answer 5

I have a Hyundai Elantra that I bought a year used, my friend got a brand new Honda Civic Hybrid. I did the math comparing the cost of her car to my by looking at how much we initially compared to how much we each have to pay in fuel every year. The results were that it would take 10 years, not factoring in interest on her car loan, for her lower gas bill to make up for the extra she paid for the more expensive vehicle. But that really depends on whether or not you're the type of person who buys vehicles brand new from a dealership. If you are then depending on the type of vehicle you go for, it'll only take a few years for you to see the benefit of the hybrid.

You should also look into natural gas cars. They're more expensive but have way cheaper fuel. And depending on where you live theres also Hydrogen cars.

http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-gx/

http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity...

Answer 6

I saw the tail end of this news segment last night, and rang for a transcript today, b/c I knew you had asked this question, and I too, was interested...

1



TRANSCRIPT



Hybrids - 10/6/2008  



The groundbreaking deal to build hybrid Camry's in Australia may

be good for the planet but not necessarily the hip pocket.



It will be years before savings on fuel, will compensate for the  higher price tag of a green car.

(Take VTR)



Soaring petrol prices are driving a new interest in fuel friendly cars.



But is being environmentally conscious, economically rewarding?



Geb Bulmer - Wheels Magazine

"People need to do their sums, buying a hybrid might make you

feel all warm and fuzzy, that's good, but you need to be able to

afford it."



Figures compiled by Wheels magazine reveal big differences in

the fuel and financial performance of three efficient models, based

on the Australian average 15,000 kilometres a year travelled.



The Toyota Prius costs around $37,000 to buy and is the most fuel

efficient option with an annual petrol bill of just over $900 a year at

current petrol prices.  



The similarly-sized Corolla is almost half the price at $21,000 but

has almost double the fuel bill.  



The Hyundai i30 diesel is around the same price as the Corolla,

and uses $400 less fuel a year.

  

So in real terms, if you buy a hybrid it will take you at least 25

years to recoup your purchase through fuel savings.



But with the soon to be Australian produced hybrid Camry, the

disparity between purchase price and overall fuel savings is much

less.  



2

The hybrid will cost $3,000 - $5000 more than the petrol model.  



Fuel is predicted to be around $900 a year and, on that basic, it

will take 7 years to recoup the purchase cost.



Other hidden pitfalls: the inefficiency of the hybrid once you hit the

open road when the petrol engine kicks in to power the heavy car

and replacing the battery after 5 years.  



John Mellor – Go Auto Magazine

" Having to replace the batteries is going to drive the resale value

out of those vehicles terribly, no one's going to want to buy them

and spend $10,000 replacing batteries.

Answer 7

According to the American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy, the Toyota Prius and the Honda Civic Hybrid are the 2nd and 3rd greenest vehicles for 2008 (behind the Honda Civic GX (natural gas model):

http://www.greenercars.org/highlights_gr...

(four of the top twelve vehicles are hybrids)

According to Edmunds.com, the True Cost to Own over 5 years is (with depreciation, financing, insurance, fuel, maintenance & repairs, taxes & fees):  http://www.edmunds.com/new/2008/toyota/p...

2008 Toyota Prius: $42,780, with a starting cash price of $24,889, equating to an average of $0.57/mile

The Prius receives Edmunds' Lowest True Cost to Own award in its market segment (sedan under $25,000):  http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/tco/2008/...

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2008/honda/ci...

2008 Honda Civic Hybrid:  $40,450, with a starting cash price of $23,975, equating to an average of $0.54/mile.

I've never seen anyone do a cost-benefit analysis for a v4 vs v6 vs diesel engine, so why do one for a hybrid drivetrain? Most cost analysis articles neglect trade-in value which the Prius does very well in maintaining. (in some areas, used Prius are still selling for near new prices for availability and rising gasoline prices!). Don't forget to include federal and any state tax incentives in your calculation (Consumer Reports forgot, and had to issue a retraction that hybrids are cheaper to own/operate than their gasoline cousins). Edmunds.com still doesn't take into account the true depreciation value (as seen by manually looking for a Prius trade-in value) when calculating their TCO, but they still say that hybrids will pay for themselves even when using their lower than actual trade-in amounts:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/AUTOS/08/22/bc.a...

Hybrids do cost less in the long term than their conventional counterparts. (Intellichoice used a 5 year ownership comparison in 2006) See http://www.intellichoice.com/press/Hybri... and http://www.intellichoice.com/carBuying10...

While Consumer Reports in 2006 only found the Toyota Prius and the Honda Civic Hybrid would pay off within the same 5 year frame. The Honda Accord Hybrid, the Ford Escape Hybrid, the Lexus RX400h, and the Toyota Highlander Hybrid were also studied. (I'll note that there was a mathematical error in the initial publication of Consumer Reports' hybrid vehicle cost analysis, which a retraction was published later... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11637968/ ) Since this publication, many more hybrid models have become available, so I can't use this to say about hybrids "in general." However, in the US, the Toyota hybrids have sold so many that they no longer qualify for the US Federal hybrid vehicle income tax credit, but Honda and others still have theirs.

There is more to vehicle ownership besides initial purchase cost and the amount of gasoline used - there is also the costs to maintain and insure it, and also depreciation costs.

However, the societal costs for emissions are not usually included. The hybrids tend to be at worst an ULEV, with many (like the Prius and HCH II) an AT-PZEV. Some are only sold in CA-emissions states. (Compare that to the often suggested VW TDIs, which cannot be sold new in CA-emission states because of their poor emissions.) In the US, hybrid models (like the Prius and HCH II) tend to be the best in fuel economy in their respective classes, using the same testing procedure to compare all cars (hybrid/gasoline/diesel/flex-fuel/etc.), and that is for BOTH highway and city driving:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/f*g/best/best...

Based on an older post:

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/2007... and using US figures

2008 Prius:  http://www.toyota.com/prius-hybrid/specs...

2009 Camry and Camry Hybrid:  http://www.toyota.com/camry/specs.html

2009 Corolla:  http://www.toyota.com/corolla/specs.html

I'm not quite sure why another answerer is comparing the Prius with the Corolla... The Prius is a mid-size, and the Corolla is a compact.  A better comparison is to the mid-size Camry.  And the EPA tests are standardized, so you should use the same tests for comparason (city to city or highway to highway or combined to combined).

Car     Sum (interior+cargo volume) Diff to Prius

--------------------------------------...

Prius   110.6 (96.2+14.4)       +0.0

Camry   116.4 (101.4+15.0)      +5.8

CamryH  112.0 (101.4+10.6)      +1.4

Corolla 103.9 (90.3+13.6)       -6.7

all listings in cu. ft.

EPA MPG

Car     City    Highway Combined

--------------------------------

Prius   48      45      46

Camry   21      31      25

CamryH  33      34      34

Corolla 26      35      29

150,000 EPA miles, @ $4/gallon:

Prius @ 46MPG (combined): 3261 gallons, $13043

Camry @ 25MPG (combined): 6000 gallons, $24000, diff +$10957 to Prius

CamryH @ 34MPG (combined): 4412 gallons, $17647, diff +$4064 to Prius

Corolla @ 29MPG (combined): 5172 gallons, $20690, diff +$7647 to Prius

But since the other answerer is comparing to a Corolla, we should use an accurate comparison of the Prius and the Corolla, which means comparible options.

Since the Prius is an automatic (eCVT) v4 engine (MSRP base package HZ $23535 including the $660 Delivery, Processing, and Handling fee), I'll use automatic Corolla LE (v4 engine) (MSRP $17310 with same $660 DPH fee).

Then start adding in options.  It looks like a number are standard between the Corolla LE and the Prius: Power Windows, Power Door Locks, Engine Immobilizer, Power Side Mirrors (Prius' is heated too), AC, Remote Keyless Entry, 6 Speaker AM/FM/CD, Tilt Steering Wheel, and Dual front airbags.

The Prius also includes ABS with tire pressure monitors, Traction Control, Cruise Control, side and curtain air bags, a rear spoiler, and Alloy wheels, which the Corolla LE doesn't have standard, but available as options.  ABS/tire pressure monitor/traction control is package AB (MSRP $300), Cruise contol is only available in the audio value package VV (MSRP $200) (this will replace the Corolla's AM/FM/CD with a AM/FM/6 disc CD (same speakers) so we add $589 for a 6-disc CD changer accessory to the Prius (which then has a 7- disc CD capacity fyi)).  Rear spoiler is package R7 (MSRP $395).  Alloy Wheels are package AW (accessory price $390).  The side airbags is package BE (MSRP $655).  To summarize, 300+200+395+390+655 = $1940 to add to the Corolla to make it comparable to the Prius, while adding $589 to make the Prius comparable to the Corolla.

So that's 17310+1940 = $19250 for the Corolla LE w/ the appropriate options and accessories.  The Prius with the 6-disc changer is 23535+589 = $24124.  The difference in MSRP is $4874 more for the Prius than the Corolla ($24124-$19250).

There's also state hybrid incentives, depending on where you live (CO gives a $2,0125 CO income tax credit for a 2008 Prius (see http://www.revenue.state.co.us/fyi/html/... ), for instance), but I'll ignore those state incentives for now since it's location dependent.

So, if you always drove your car according to the EPA combined (45% highway, 55% city) test cycle, and gasoline was a stagnant $4/gallon over the time it takes you to drive 150,000 miles, and you purchased a vehicle today, and ignoring sales or excise taxes (based on the vehicle price):  To purchase the Prius you'd spend $4874 more than on the comparable Corolla LE, but after 150,000 highway miles @ $4/gallon you'd spend $7947 more on the Corolla LE than on the Prius.

So, just comparing similar vehicles based just on MSRP and their expected fuel use over 150,000 miles, you'd pay $3073 more for the comparable 2009 Corolla LE than for the 2008 Prius.

To put it differently:

When does:

Cost of Corolla LE + cost of gas @29mpg = Cost of Prius + cost of gas @46mpg

given:

gas is $4/gallon

cost of Corolla LE = $19250

cost of Prius = $24124

(When is the cost of a Corolla LE + fuel cost of Corolla LE the same as cost of Prius + fuel cost of Prius, at what mileage?)

(this is obviously a contrived example - it assumes that the price of gasoline is constant; it doesn't include maintenance or insurance costs, depreciation costs, differences in excise taxes, or whether you like the features of one car over the other better...)

anyhow, solve for x:

remember that we can add/subtract/multiply/divide by the same amount to both sides on an equals equation, and still maintain the equality. We

solve for the unknown x by getting x all by itself on one side of the equation and multiplied only by 1.

$19250 + [x miles * ($4/gallon) / (29 miles/gallon)] = $24124 + [x miles * ($4/gallon) / (46 miles/gallon)]

$19250 + [x miles * ($4/gallon) * (1 gallon/29 miles)] = $24124 + [x miles * ($4/gallon) * (1 gallon/46 miles)]

$19250 + [ x*$4*(1/29) ] = $24124 + [ x*$4*(1/46) ]  remove the $ signs

19250 + [ x*4*(1/29) ] = 24124 + [ x*4*(1/46) ]

19250 + [ x*(4/29) ] - 19250 = 24124 - 19250 + [ x*(4/46) ]

[ x*(4/29) ] = 4874 + [ x*(4/46) ]

[ x*(4/29) ] - [ x*(4/46) ] = 4874 + [ x*(4/46) ] - [ x*(4/46) ]

x * [ (4/29) - (4/46) ] = 4874

x * [ (4/29)*(46/46) - (4/46)*(29/29) ] = 4874

x * [ (184/1334) - (116/1334) ] = 4874

x * (68/1334) = 4874

x * (34/667) = 4874

x * (34/667) * (667/34) = 4874 * (667/34)

x = 95,616.41

So, at a steady $4/gallon for gasoline, the "break-even" point for just the purchase price of the comparable Corolla LE to the Prius is at 95,616.41 miles.

YMMV with state incentives of course.  Also, for really calculating ROI on a vehicle (not just purchase price and gasoline cost), you'd need to calculate the different cost for maintenance, insurance, and the big one: depreciation, which definitely makes the Prius even more attractive.

Meanwhile, there's a lot of myth

Answer 8

I expect the gas savings will not equal (in real terms) the premium you would pay for a Prius vs. a comparable Toyota like a Corrola. I'm assuming driving 10-15,000 miles a year.

You are looking at several thousand dollars price difference and assuming you will keep the car for 5 years, I don't think you can break even in nominal dollars. In real dollars, forget it, unless you are going to have it for much longer. And then you have the maintance costs with an older car that is off-warranty.

Re the repairs, a hybrid has less tear and wear on the moving parts than a standard ICE does, but the hybrid part of the system may be costly to fix. The batteries alone will cost serious cash to replace. I think the repair/maintannance costs will be close to a wash.

I read the Prius comes with an 8-year,100,000 mile warranty and that life spans in general are 30-50% longer than warranties. So figure at least 10 years before it's not worth keeping on the road and most likely much longer.

So I really think the economics are not there for savings. I don't know if tax credits or deductions are a factor where you are.

That leaves the green. Personally, I think a slight premium amortised over several years for a major reduction in emission levels during the whole time is worth something and I would be tempted to get a hybrid for that reason.  :)

Answer 9

I don't know the answer to your question, but I love your Josephine Baker avatar