I don't believe in natural horsemanship...?

Question

I'll admit that the methods work, but there's really no natural way to tame or train a horse. Any human-horse interaction is not natural. Anytime you see a person and horse doing dressage, or flying over a jump or just a horse letting a person touch it, is not natural to the horse. Horses are flight animals (i'm sure you all know this) and they are hard-wired to flee from anything scary that could be a threat to them. So, when we teach them to ignore these fears or to trust a us, it's just not in there nature. I read a book by a trainer who worked with Monty Roberts for a long time, (Unlock your horse's talent in 20 minutes a day, by Richard Staples) Has anyone read this book?

Well, that's my opinion,

what's yours?

Answer 1

Horses have breed breed for thousands and thousands of years to meet our needs.  Not many horses are wild still today, and there really is no such thing as the "natural" way to train a horse.  Since horses have been breed for so long, it would now be unnatural for us to set them free (if that makes sense).  It's like saying I want my horse to live the most natural life possible and then turning a tb out in a field for eternity.  That would not work, because horses have be domesticated for quite sometime and their life revolves around humans.  Most horse breed could not survive without human contact.  Most horses are born in captivity and are touched by humans, but if we were to let one of them loose, it would probably die sooner than we expected.  I hope this made sense.

Answer 2

Hi Cupcake,  I've Googled that book and Author, but nothing came up????  I would be interested in taking a look at it.  Any ideas?

Answer 3

Semantics.  That's all you're talking about.  All that term refers to is the attempt to work with the horses' natural inclinations and temperaments and to utilize this understanding to train them in a humane way, speaking their natural language, rather than attempting to force them to do things according to OUR natural language.

I know what you were getting at, and yes, we ask them to do lots and lots of things which are not natural, not the least of which is to stand in a 12x12 box for many hours each day.  Fortunately they are tractable and forgiving creatures who, in my opinion, are well equipped to perform the crazy things we ask of them. And actually come to enjoy the work, if we are fair, strict and kind to them.

Never read the book.  I'll look for it.

PS I don't know how old you are, but when I was 13, I had this sort of moral crisis, when I thought it was wrong to "force" my pony and horse to carry me around on their backs when I knew their pereference was to be out in the field grazing.  Fortunately I resolved this dilemma by concluding that they are too perfectly designed physiologically and psychologically for (compassionate) training and riding, to deny this as their purpose.  Well I didn't mean to be so long-winded.  Hope this helps.

PPS "natural" horsemanship has been being practiced for thousands of years, it's just resurfaced with a new name, rediscovered, sort of.  And some people invent all kinds of stupid terms and superfluous equipment and package it all in a way to make money from unwitting, inexperienced, nubile horse owners.  Cowboys who are good horsemen and understand horses have been intuitively practicing "natural horsemanship" - - they just didn't bother to give it a name. I think that's what Kevin was getting at, maybe.

Answer 4

NH kind of bugs me. I mean I like that they use groundwork, and are kind to the horses but it's so gimmicky. Like, buy this $50 rope halter thats the same as a $5 one, buy this whip, its $60 more expensive, because it's orange and not really a whip.

And I hate it when they say bits (and crops, and spurs) are cruel. If I use a copper roller snaffle, a short hunter crop (in case of run-outs, misbehaving etc) and OCCASIONALLY little itty bitty baby spurs if my horse is lazy, I am hardly a crazed horse abuser.

But yeah horsemanship is just plain unnatural. That can still mean that my mare loves to jump, and is not too interested on being a wild horse running around the countryside. (she has escaped before. she realizes it is dull, scary and there is no big pile of hay in the woods. She came charging back and ran into her paddock)

Answer 5

I agree that jumping isn't natural for a horse and that is why a lot of horses refuse jumps. Natural Horsemanship is a term used for a gentler way of training a horse than used to be done. What is natural for a horse is grazing, so anything we do with a horse other than that isn't natural in the strict sense of the word. What is called natural horsemanship does work in getting as horse to be a more willing participant in its training and use. You can beat a horse into submission, but most people feel that way is wrong. I believe you can reach a level of communication that will get the results you want with a horse without using a whip or any other rough method. I have accomplished this with horses using natural horsemanship methods. Is this though what a horse would naturally do? I would say no.

Answer 6

Horses are domesticated animals, bred over thousands of years to match our wants and needs as closely as possible. There's nothing "natural" about that. What's the alternative? Letting horses act on pure instinct and risk endangering ourselves? Not have horses at all? Neither of these sound good to me. Horses are used for all kinds of activities that they wouldn't do in the wild, but that doesn't make it wrong. Horses enjoy that stuff a lot more than they would like to spend all their time standing in a pasture.

Answer 7

i will agree that horses are flee animals. but they have been domesticated for hundreds of years. i will agree that is not natural for a for do being doing dressage moves. but we have trained them for our own uses. i do think western is more natural but some horses do enjoying jumping and dressage.  

Answer 8

You'll have to do a lot more than read a book before you can legitimately make any argument against natural horsemanship.  You are arguing semantics here...you have to understand the concepts and goals of natural horsemanship training, not just argue the language, to have any substance worth discussing.  It wouldn't hurt for you to study a bit of the history of horsemanship, either, before you come out with bold statements and attempt to educate those of us who have spent lifetimes (56 years in my case) learning and developing as horsemen and women.  The hard-wiring you refer to has always been there, and yet we have learned to deal with it.  And those of us using natural horsemanship methods have learned to undo some of that hard-wiring and convince our horses to change from fight or flight to stand and wait for instruction.

Natural Horsemanship trainers do not aspire to world championships...that is another pursuit altogether.  Training for the politicized competition involved in winning championships has no more to do with natural horsemanship than breast feeding a baby has to do with preparing that same baby for the olympics.

ADD...Kevin, by your reasoning the vaqueros have not proven themselves as horsemen since they didn't win any world championships....oh well......

Kevin....my resources don't agree with your statement.  Not at all.....I guess we'll both have to dig deeper to have a big fight!!!!

Kevin....Ouch!  A bit harsh on the personal attacks there.  Let's fight fair or nobody learns anything.

Cupcake...sorry for turning your question into a dialogue...I think it is too early in the game for you to form an opinion that could prevent you from experiencing all that you can.  Always keep an open mind...I'm an old dog who is still learning new tricks.....and until I take my last breath, I'll be asking why, and "can I do it better"?

Answer 9

I have found the best way to teach/train a horse is by a lots of riding. Not 30 minutes every day or every couple of days. No fancy halters, whips or lead ropes needed. Just lots of hours in the saddle with some common sense. There are a few things that can be learned by any of these pro trainers, but for the most part hands on and trial and error works pretty well. You know that's how "The Natural" horse trainers came up with there method. I don't even bother with reading or watching anything that doesn't have realistic practices.

Answer 10

Natural horsemanship is a hippie/yuppie/PC term for imitation vaquero's but with one exception. These trainers do not compete in any thing. When Pat Parrelli, Monty Roberts and other win ANY WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP, will I recognize them as a world class trainer. These people are great marketers. But they have yet to compete, and isn't that the purpose of a trainer/coach? In all honestly its a way for someone to make money with horses who does not compete. That's all.

I know I am going to get troll'ed for this but, I have been competing in the horse world for 27 years, and I don't much care for BS.

Edit- Gallop you might want to check your history. THEY INVENTED RODEO!!! *gasp!* Burst some bubbles there. Vaqueros are the original cowboys. In fact the American cowboy learned to rope from the vaqueros. And the Turtles organization was the grandfather of the PRCA.  If you doubt me. Look it up.

Edit- Gallop yeah. Um, your just disagreeing just to try to start an argument that you can not prove wrong because you are too damned lazy to actually do some research. Again what I stated in my above ''Edit'' can be backed up, ''if'' you actually looked it up. But your right in your own mind and that what really counts. Right? I mean really, reality is only perspective. And you got yours, even if the world doesn't match up to it.

Edit- Hey John! Same way here. I think you just said it more diplomaticly. Yeah, my problem is, I sometime think you just need to grab-em by the nose and kick them in th butt. But that gets me introuble.

Answer 11

I believe it but i totaly respect you opinion

Answer 12

I take what works for the individual animal...

People learn different, so do animals.. just because one animal is in kindergarden for 5 years *scoffing*, doesn't mean all have to be.

I would like to think I am open minded enough to not resist something that might benefit the animal, and not resist it only because its not from a NH guru.

Answer 13

Honestly, what IS natural that people do these days?

Even if what you're saying is right, what are you going to do? Start a movement that would cost unfathomable amounts of money to shut down every single horse barn in the world and create horse sanctuaries in which no one can ever enter?

Hopefully horses will somehow evolve to overcome this unnaturalness, 'cause we're not going to stop interacting with them for a long, long, long, long time.

Answer 14

i agree kinda....they can be tamed but yes, they will still run if they need too...but thats why there are wild and domestic horses

Answer 15

Well I suppose If you want to be technical, you would be right, but by that analogy than nothing in life is natural.......we domesticated the horse to be everything from pulling farm plows to pleasure riding horses. The "natural horsemanship" movement is all about reaching certain goals with the least amount of trauma and stress to your animal and creating a bond based on understanding them and the way they communicate with each other. I think you are being to literal. By no means am I a Parelle fan. I like either Richard Shrake or Clinton Anderson. I am into straight forward training , simple and no silly 7 games. I train for the show ring so the whole Natural Horsemanship movement Is not for me. I do respect some of the methods but a lot of those have been around for thousands of years and actually were stolen from other people.

Answer 16

well the way that i look at natural horsemanship is to communicate to my horse like a horse would communicate to another horse. i can understand your point of veiw, that its never going to be natural, and in all aspect it truely isnt natural, but we can make it as natural as possible such as imprinting at birth, ect. but i work with my horse using 'natural' horsemanship by treating her as if i am the lead mare in a herd and she is to follow what i say. i basically do what i can to emulate a horse whether that be in grooming, playful interaction, groundwork, loading, punishing, establishing dominance, ect.

i 'talk' to her the way a horse would tell another something. body language and such.. even if that does mean punishing my horse when she does something bad which i know alot of people frown upon but a lead mare in the wild would punish a recessive mare if they get out of hand, so thats what im going to do.

Answer 17

"natural horse man"ship as a word is to be ignored.

but the practices behind it shouldnt be. alot of people  that do not know alot about the horses natural behaviour have been benefited by this form of dicipline and if it surves its purpose positivly torwards people and equines, why must we dicriminate????

if it brings out a positive experience between both individuals then dont complain

nothing in our world is natural anymore, but its what we define as natural...

Answer 18

i know saddles and bridles and stuff are all unatural for horses, but i suppose if you are breaking in a horse its real hard to do it with out somekind of help. its like you cant hop on and expects it to turn and stuff so i do see the point in aids like saddles and bridles.

if you go on youtube and search for Stacey Westfall you will find vidoes on one woman who is amzing, the bond she has with her horses is sooo good. she does reigning with out a saddle or bridle, flyinf changes, sliding stops, sidepassing EVERYTHING! it took her 3 years to train her horse this but i think its the most natural thing ive seen. shes taken time to teach the horse and you can tell the horse is willing...otherwise it wouldnt cooperate.

Answer 19

I disagree. First of all, natural horseamanship doesn't teach the horse to ignore the fears. What natural horsemanship is really about is using horse language to speak to them and convince them you are their leader, so should be respected and trusted.

David

http://gentlenaturalhorseman.blogspot.co...

Answer 20

I'm not a natural horsemanship follower - nor do I think that the methods they present have absolutely no merit at all. I wander down the middle of this road. My own thought on the matter is that every single horse person I meet, ride with, watch or read about has something I can learn and put to use if I am willing to look and listen hard enough. I do agree that the big NH guru's are marketing masters. I also agree that many of their methods have stemmed from traditional vaquero ways, I find this interesting. They are taking methods that have been historically refined and proven by other people (in this case, vaquero's) and mass marketing it to the general public.

In case it is unclear, here is the definition of vaquero:

va·que·ro   (vä-kâr'ō)  n.   pl. va·que·ros Chiefly Texas

See cowboy.

[Spanish, from vaca, cow, from Latin vacca.]

Used chiefly in southwest and central Texas to mean a ranch hand or cowboy, the word vaquero is a direct loan from Spanish; that is, it is spelled and pronounced, even by English speakers, much as it would be in Spanish. In California, however, the same word was Anglicized to buckaroo. Craig M. Carver, author of American Regional Dialects, points out that the two words also reflect cultural differences between cattlemen in Texas and California. The Texas vaquero was typically a bachelor who hired on with different outfits, while the California buckaroo usually stayed on the same ranch where he was born or had grown up and raised his own family there.

Just need to comment on the vaquero stuff. It isn't fair to say that the vaquero's haven't won any world championships, they've been around longer than there has been world level competition. Also, they have their own competitions, that is, ranch rodeos, big loop competitions and please see this article:

"... One reason that the NRCHA Snaffle Bit Futurities are so popular is that they have a fascinating history. The California reined cow-horse was the trusted partner of the vaqueros for about 150 years. They developed the equipment, riding style and training techniques that produced these fine working stock horses that drove the herds of longhorn cattle from Mexico to California. Today the legacy of these horses and horsemen has been preserved through these competitions.

..."

here is the link:

http://www.santaynezvalleyjournal.com/ar...

here is another interesting link:

http://westernhorseman.com/index.php?opt...

Angel C: just because a person doesn't use "NH" does not mean that you cease to communicate, bond with, make a willing partner of your horse. You keep saying beating. Well, I don't beat my horses and I have some very willing partners but neither do I see any benefit of playing (for example) Parelli's 7 games with my horses.

Answer 21

Natural horsemanship is natural. You just dont get it. Its a much nicer and better way to treat and train your horse. You respect your horse and he respects you. Its easier then beating him. lol Like i said you just  dont get the "nature" in it. In this type of training we do things naturally. Such as if a horse is afraid of going over a puddle it would be more natural to be the leader and go with the horse and keep workin at that as apposed to beeating him to go over the horse. In the will horses look up to a leader to follow them. We have to be the horses leader.

For goodnes sakes. Its a mystery why you would not beleive in this type of training. You make a bond with your horse this way. You cant make a bond with your horse by hitting him.

Answer 22

you are right to question the term "natural horsemanship" and we can talk semantics till the cows come home.the term "natural horsemanship" is a feel good term so people can feel all warm and fuzzy when they use the term to explain their training techniques to the unknowing public.i use old tried and true methods to train my horses so they are willing,self thinking partners using their natural instinct to avoid injury but still trusting my judgment and direction,this makes a working pair that act as one and it comes from generations of trial and error.when i look at a horse, i look at it and watch its movement and how it reacts with the environment around it to find a job that it will not only excel in but would also enjoy doing otherwise you are trying to read ancient egyptian without the rosetta stone.there is no "natural" way to train a horse,only using a horses natural abilities and form to accent the way it moves.

Kevin:just using a little cowboy diplomacy.