IF people think?

Question

I see alot of people on this forum who infer, or outright say, that infertile women should "take the hint" (that they just aren't "meant" to be parents)

now, I believe in God.. and I believe that there are reasons for what he does/allows....I just believe that it is arrogant of any human to try to guess those reasons.. I believe God's mind is so far above our own that it is impossible for us to try and "guess what he's thinking"

wouldn't it follow that if infertility was a sign that you aren't meant to be parents, that all fertile people ARE meant to be parents?? Would you really agree with this? You cannot have one side of the coin without the other..

Also, couldn't God let a woman be infertile just SO she'd adopt a child that really needed a home?

What do you think? Can you have one part of the logic without the other?

this is NOT a rant, it's a legitimate question asking whether or not one half of the logic naturally follows the other..

Answer 1

Yes, I believe that God has a plan for each of us and that things happen for a reason.  We don't always know God's plan because we can't see the big picture as He does.

Another word about God and adoption:  God is Jesus' Father.  The Virgin Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit with God's Son. God CHOSE Mary to be Jesus' earthly mother and Joseph to be Jesus' earthly Father--the first OPEN ADOPTION.  Contrary to what many think, God does approve of adoption--he invented it!!

Answer 2

I see your point and follow that logic!  I will add....If we liken infertility to any other medical condition, then the analogy that some claim would also follow.  If a person has cancer, is it their responsibility to accept that they have cancer and seek no resolution?  

If a person is born without a limb, is it  their responsibility to just accept that and never seek out prosthesis to improve their life?

If we have diabetes, don't we take insulin to replace the insulin we were not born with?

If we have kidney disease, and need a transplant, are we all supposed to suffer, or do we seek out a transplant if possible?   Do transplant recepients feel entitled to someone else's organ?  No, they just want to be healthy, and have a decent and good life lifke anyone lese.  

  

The argument that Sunny (more aptly "Stormy"?) tends to make, is that adoptive parents feel entitled to someone else's child.  How about birthmothers who relinquish, then?  Wouldn't the reverse then be true?  That birthmothers feel entitled to have someone else raise, care for, support and educate her child for her?

To complete Stormy's argument, (not mine):  If people did not "give up" their children, then adoptive parents would not adopt them.

FYI to the small group of anti-adoption posters who try to  delete every question I ask, and thumbs down every post I make, I am not going away.  You are being reviewed for trying to take action against every every person who supports adoption choice.   And, yes, this is Joslin.

Answer 3

First of, let me say that I think that people who say that infertile women should "take the hint" and not wish to become parents....possess a very concerning and deeply immature attitude. Passing comments like that are obviously going to be extremely hurtful to the person that it is directed towards and is really nothing short of bullying!

I am a beliver in God, like yourself. As a primary school teacher, I have seen some fantastic adoptive parents as well as children thriving in a deeply loving and supportive family, without living with their original "birthparents". So many children in the world are looking for homes, either to take them away from poor parenting, abuse etc or to make a fresh start in life.

I think adoption is the given right of most people :] Obviously, rigorous checks are run before any child is placed with a new family. I also believe that sometimes, infertile couples looking to adopt VALUE the child they have been given so much, appreciating that they have been given a chance to start a family.

Answer 4

I am infertile.  I cursed God for my infertility for a very long time because my husband and I so wanted to have a family.  When we were contacted by a friend who knew of a child needing a home, the pieces all fell into place.  We truly feel that God blessed us with our infertility so that we would adopt this child who needed us.  Infertility was difficult but I am so glad that we could not conceive because our son is my world.  I wouldn't change that for anything.  God had a plan for us to be a family - I just didn't understand His plan at the time.  : )

ETA:  Just saw School Nurse's answer - and I support her Jesus and Joseph theory 100%.  I've been saying the same thing for awhile.  If God can allow His own Son to be raised by another man in a time where the father was responsible for all education, spiritual training, etc., then how can God be "against" adoption?  It just doesn't make sense.

Answer 5

I believe in God, too.  But 'logic' and God in any conversation do not make sense.  Religion is about faith-no one KNOWS anything.

But I refuse to believe that God is up in the sky micro-managing lives.  Just as 'he' didn't have a hand in my adoption, he doesn't 'decide' who is fertile, and who isn't.

That said, I don't really understand why some infertile women can't seen to accept that they will never give birth.  I would feel the same way about someone who kept trying to get into medical school to no avail.  As human beings, there is no way we can all have EVERYTHING.  There are some women who are naturally infertile, but there are also lots of women who have behaved in a way that has compromised their fertility, too.  So at what point do these women say, "Enough"?

My 'problem' begins when these women (not every infertile woman) decides that because she cannot manufacture a child, that a woman (usually of a lower class) who has less resources than she does, should give her baby up, to someone who 'deserves' it more.  Like her.

Just because I want to go to medical school, doesn't mean that I should get in, or get in in place of someone who has met the requirements.

ETA: Tofu, I'm going to 'assume' that you're new here, as your avatar and join date indicate...so how would YOU know what I think about anything?  I disagree with your assumptions about me, and need you to ditch those quotes you've attributed to me.  Thanks.

Answer 6

I believe faith is alot stronger and more reliable than what your doctor can tell you. If Abraham and Sarah can have a baby as old as they were (and her infertile), why couldn't an infertile woman have a baby today? I believe that if you desire children, there will be children in your life. Maybe not genetic, maybe not through adoption, but there will be children. I refuse to think infertility has anything to do with having or not having children. God decides, period. There are plenty of fertile women out there that tragically cannot carry to term. Does that mean they are to always suffer through miscarriage? No. I don't know why these things happen, I just trust in God that my kids will come and will be healthy. I'm pregnant with our 4th and truly feel blessed to have had them and for them to all be healthy.

Answer 7

There are people who are just plain mean! not every infertile couple are waiting in the wings to steal a baby.

Answer 8

There really isn't any big plan, things don't necessarily happen for the better, and I doubt god is up there dickin' around with this issue and playing favorites - you get to have a baby and you don't; you get to keep your child, and you don't...

I mostly wanted to respond to the poster who thinks that a person's attempt to recover from cancer, diabetes, or organ failure, or compensate for the loss of a limb, is somehow similar to adopting. She's basically saying that adopting a child is an acceptable "solution" to infertility, which I think most of us know is not a good reason to adopt. That sets up the old situation of what is best for the adult not the child.

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't miss my left kidney as much as I miss my son.

It's nice that you agreed with the logic of the question, too bad your train derailed.

Answer 9

I spent 15 years dealing with infertility issues before I finally "woke up" and accepted that just because I wanted something didn't mean I had a right to it.

I have many friends who were either unable to have any children or unable to have more than one. All of the friends who accepted this are content and have moved on with their lives. The few who have fought reality have drained their bank accounts, their marriages, and their own inner peace.

God does not owe anyone a baby.

Answer 10

Hmm.  The God's Will part of your argument doesn't interest me but, I hadn' t thought about the, "fertile people ARE meant to be parents," portion of your thesis.  I think it makes your argument.  Simply being fertile doesn't mean your qualified/meant to be a parent.  Therefore, someone's infertility isn't evidence of someone being an incompetent parent.

Answer 11

That is probably the most well-rounded question I've been given to see here so far.  And your "IF" says it all.  Those people suffer from compound ignorance:  they don't know that they don't know, and they *think* they know.

I believe in one unconditionally loving God, so to me all things done with unconditional love have God's blessing.

Answer 12

hi

Answer 13

I think its the idea behind adoption being used as a cure for infertility.

While chemo therapy may cure cancer, it is a resolution to many peoples lives that are facing cancer.

Adoption isn't a resolution to infertility. They are still infertile. I didn't heal my parents desire to have children of their own. Thats not possible for them. All of those dreams are still gone.

I have no problem with infertile people adopting children if its done for the right reason. It doesn't even matter if I do have a problem with them adopting for the wrong reasons, i can't stop someone from adopting on a personal level at this point in my life. So my feelings on the issue I hope don't offend anyone.

That being said, If you are adopting "because you can't have children of your own and its the next closest thing" I believe that has the potential to set up conflict in the relationship between adoptee and adoptive parents.

Adoptees aren't here to fill the empty wounds of empty uterus' and the inability to biologically reproduce and fullfill the dreams of having your own children. We can't do that. That dream must be surrendered, imo before an adoption takes place.

Because its not about the adoptees fullfilling anyones dreams. We're coming from a state of trauma, a state of loss, a state of sadness. Losing a parent and heritage is sad for everyone. Even children that are abused, what a tremendous loss for them to have even BEEN in that situation. Yes their new life hopefully will be safer, healthier, but imagine yourself coming from a place of unhappiness only to be pushed into a family that is so emotonially needy themselves, that the childs pain is overlooked.

That is when attachment issues become stronger. That is the cold awakening that you're in a world, all alone. That nobody is here for you. That is when the child shuts everyone out and becomes a people pleaser to survive.

Now, if an infertile couple come to terms with their infertility. Accept, you know we're never having children. all of my dreams pointed to having a family of my own, I must surrender that, and since we're talking about God, they must surrender the desires of the flesh and open their bodies to the will of God. And accept life without biological children.

They look into the world and they say to themselves, there are so many children who really need help. Because in reality, there ARE. How can we HELP them. Lets address the poverty levels and situations of children from around our world and help them. Lets give back to the children who really need help. Because, according to the logic in the original post, if infertile people were called on by God, to help children, they'd clearly be massive humanitarians devoting their entire life to the benefit of children. They'd find a way to mass impact the children of our world in a positive manner, afterall, they're called on by GOD.

Adoption doesn't help children on a large scale. It doesn't work towards elliminating the reasons for separation in the first place. IE: over 15 million orphans from AIDS will be in Africa by 2018. Thats alot of children. What is adoption doing about that? very little. With the money going into international adoption from africa, it could be doing alot more.

If infertile people were called on by God to help the children who need the help, the foster care system would be empty.

Mothers would have homes they could stay in and learn to parent their children while being taken care of, educated, and trained for jobs to provide for themselves and their children.

If God called hundreds of thousands of people to come together in the name of the children, there would BE NO ADOPTION.

That would be the perfect world.

Finally people caring for the children.

Answer 14

Tofu,

Excellent point!  i agree with you that not all fertile people are meant to be parents = not all infertile people are not meant to be parents.  As i said in a previous post, seems that the blade is sharp on both sides of the sword.  

Thanks for bringing up an excellent point!

Answer 15

I think you're absolutely right! God works in mysterious ways, and something that may seem bad at the time may turn out to be a blessing later, you just don't know where it's going to go.

Answer 16

i don't believe in a God but i believe that everything happens for a purpose.

Answer 17

of course. why have a child when you can adopt one? how can you even think those idiots can be right? it is their genes that should not be passed on. in my family we all chose to adopt instead of having our own. and we are so much the better for it!

Answer 18

If that were true that infertile people should "get the hint" or "not mess with nature" then why do fertile people take birth control? were they MEANT to have 20 kids? Maybe GOD wants you to go through the fertility treatments or adoption so you are very thankful and grateful for that child instead of taking having a baby for granted or  even resent the baby because you got pregnant when you didn't want to..... Who knows

Answer 19

Your logic is flawed, do you not consider yourself arrogant, you are making an assumption that a god like person exist, and that cannot be proved in any shape or form, I feel very sorry for people who cannot have children for medical or fertility reason, or people who have had an accident which has caused them to become infertile, i wish people who have this problem all the luck in the world and hope they continue to keep up with their fertility treatment and become a farther and mother one day.

Answer 20

I know God had a plan for me!  I was born to a teenage girl who could not keep me and my mother was hundreds of miles away wanting me!  God gave me to my mom and my mom to me.  No matter how ugly others in this forum want to act, I am an adoption sucess story and KNOW how blessed I have been and continue to be because my mom could not have a child of her own.  BTW I am her child!!!!  A 41 year old adopted child that has always know I was special, wanted and loved.

Answer 21

You right in what you say. I find it apuling how no one is very sensitive toward a woman who cannot have kids, but yet adoptees expect to have sensitive toward them.



I am not a religious person so I cant speak from that point of view. I can only say that those ho cant have kids, are not greedy people. They are people who want to parent. There is nothing wrong with that.

People are never going to get over the fact, that adoptive parents are actually doing a good thing.

Answer 22

I definitely cannot agree with that line of thinking.  You're right that you have to accept both sides of the logic.  And it's very, very clear that there are far too many fertile people who are no where near qualified to be parents.

I might agree that it's God's will that infertile people aren't becoming pregnant...but I believe that this should be read as a message that God wants them to help take care of someone else.  God would want all of his creations to be loved and well nurtured, and this might be his way of making that happen.

Answer 23

Amen!

Answer 24

Since it's a legitimate question about logic, let me try...

If you accept the position that infertile people should not have children (because they are infertile), nothing follows about fertile people.  

(1) Simply because people CAN do something, it doesn't follow that they OUGHT to do it.  (That's a dangerous position if ever there was one.)  

(2) But if people CANNOT do something, then they OUGHT NOT do it.  

The two claims are logically independent of one another.  

(1) is clearly a position we ought to reject.  If we OUGHT to do everything we CAN do, then that would justify all manner of horrors and violence.  So it would be a good idea if everyone acknowledge that the position represented in (1) is false.

(2) on the other hand, seems to be a straightforward principle of morality.  We can only be obligated to do that which we CAN do.  I have no obligation to do that which I cannot do.  

That's your logic question.  

But the question about infertility is more subtle than that answer suggests (and than, perhaps, you recognize).  If I am infertile, then I CANNOT have children of my own, and so I OUGHT NOT have children of my own.  (To say otherwise is to demand from me the impossible.)  But of course nothing follows from my infertility about whether I should adopt.  

Being infertile does not make it impossible for me to adopt.  So I CAN adopt, though I CANNOT have children of my own.  However, we have already seen that simply because I CAN do something, it does not follow that I OUGHT to do it.  (Our discussion of (1).)  It is, in other words, an open question whether I OUGHT to adopt.  Being infertile does not give someone the RIGHT to adopt.  It requires another discussion to determine whether people OUGHT to adopt.

What I've tried to show here is that it isn't (2) that raises the question for adoption.  Not being able to have your own biological children does not prevent one from adopting.  What really raises the question is the obvious problems for (1).  Simply because we CAN do something, it doesn't follow that we OUGHT to.  Simply because infertile women CAN adopt, it doesn't follow that they OUGHT to.

ETA:  Wait.  You had a point that you didn't state, and were engaged in misleading rhetoric to hint at this point, but you aren't engaged in a rant?  I thought you said you had a legitimate logic question.  I answered your legitimate logic question by showing how the two positions you thought were linked were, in fact, separate.  Now you're saying you had a different point.  That means this wasn't a legitimate logic question?  The reason I didn't understand what you were asking was because I took you at your word that you weren't on a rant, but that you were asking a legitimate, straight-forward question.  My bad.

ETA2:  You need to reread my response.  The one doesn't follow from the other.  I've PROVEN that it doesn't using the logic you said you asked for.  I don't object to you having a definite opinion.  Your opinion is that infertile people should be allowed to adopt.  I get that.  That's fine.  That's your opinion.  But your claim that one statement implies the other is false.  If you didn't want to know that, then your question was misleading, because you had a "deeper" point.  If you didn't really want to know the answer, from logic, to your LOGIC question, then your words were misleading.

ETA? (I've lost count):  Thank you for saying so.  No harm done.

Answer 25

I like the way you think and agree with you 100%!

Answer 26

I can honestly say that I would never think that someone who is infertile should not have a child. My family has an extremely involved history with adoption. My mom was, my dad's brothers and sisters were, and my sisters baby was adopted by another family. Its a wonderful process and truely blesses the families that are fortunate to recieve these children. I know people who raise questions in my eyes with thier children, but its not my place for me to judge them or decide who deserves kids.

Answer 27

IF is a word. 5 is a number.

I hope this helps.

Answer 28

Phil's logic completely makes sense, and shows the incorrect logic of the question.  Joslin (yes, you don't have to say who you are, we all know) is following the flawed logic, rather than understanding that it's not about being stuck in a position (childless.)  I'm sorry that Joslin doesn't understand that a desire for change doesn't negate what she calls "adoption choice."  Too stuck in her own position to see reality.

ETA:

Even if God is cool with adoption, He's certainly not cool with adoption as it's practiced in the US.  Jesus said the TRUTH will set you free.  US adoption practices are full of secrets and lies.

Oh, and Moses may be considered by many to have been "adopted" by the Egyptian Pharaoh's daughter, but God called Moses to lead his own people -- his own people the Israelites, that is.