Idea about energy efficient trains?

Question

Where would you direct ideas on how to make trains more energy efficient? Please only answer with a serious source, someone who's willing to listen to possible changes in the railway system.

Answer 1

Before you submit your idea, I would suggest that you do some serious history on why our Railroads are the way they are.

For you Euros, who keep telling us that we should go with electric poser for out locomotives and start stringing those wonderful overhanging wires every where, you need to consider weight.

The Euro's don't get it.  Our equipmnet as it sits right now pulls trains 9000 feet in length, (At Maximum Allowable Tonnage).  Trains weighing in at upwards of 16,000 tons?

I think Skidderback, said some of the trains can tip the scale at 32,000 tons.  Gees that is some weight!

The point is, when you start considering what our country places as demands on freight, the sheer numbers are staggering.  

Union Pacifc Railroad alone accounts for nearly 1/3 of the freight handled Nation-Wide.  

As for a railroad company trying something new.  Union Pacifc has nearly always been on that front line with the largest locomotives in American Railroading History.

Union Pacific 4-6-6-4 Challenger Locomotive

Union Pacific 4-8-8-4 Big Boy Locomotive

Union Pacific EMD Century Twin Diesel Locomotive

Union Pacific EMD Turbine Locomotive

Union Pacific 2-12-4 Locomotive

Southern Pacific 2-8-8-4 Cab Forward

Southern Pacific 4-8-4 GS-4

Pennsy Duplex, 2-4-4-4-2, 2-6-6-6-2

Norfolk Western, 4-6-6-6-4

All US Railroads, Northern Series Locomotives, (4-8-4)

All US Railroads, Mountain Class, (4-8-2)

All US Railroads, Pacific Class, (4-6-2)

All US Railroads, Mikado Class, (2-8-2)

All US Railroads EMD SD-60, 70, 80

All US Railroads GE AC-4400 Series and later.

All US Railroads, SD40-2 Series

All US Railroads, GE Dash-8 Series

All US Railroads, SD-45 Series

Southern Pacific, EMD SD-40-2T Series.

Though I have mentioned Steam Locomotives in this, the reason I have is when you start doing the math, the Steam Engines were more powerful.  How could this be?

They were heavier than todays Diesel Engines, and a single locomotive, (Union Pacific Big Boy), was capable of pulling a train nearly 2 miles in length up Sherman Hill of regular runs at a speed of 25 miles per hour or better.  On a flat out run, she could pull her cargo at 70+ MPH with out breaking a sweat.

Today it takes multiple locomotives to do the same work.  However, having said that, what you are not seeing in the efficency chain, is that yes, there may indeed be 3 to 5 locomotives needed to pull a train, at the present date, but they are all inter-connected to eachother via a device called an MU Cable.  This allows all of the locomotives to act as one locomotive, being controlled by one crew.  Both efficent and cost effective.  

In the days of steam, each locomotive, though more powerful, had to be manned by a complete crew.  Each of the crews had to syncronize their actions with the other crew.  If they didn't the results were disasterous.  

If you are asking if there could be a change in the type of fuel used, well that may be coming.  But they are going to have to find a fuel type that has a very high BTU Ratio.  This is the problem with steam engines.

Let me give you an example.

Would steam engines be a more environmentally friendly type of alternative?  Yes.  Why?  Well its steam! IE: Water Vapor.

Here is the hitch.  

There are three types of fuel that allow you to maintain the necessary heat in a boiler at a sustainable level, to maintian the necessary boiler pressure of 200 PSI or greater.  

Coal

#3 Bunker Oil

Wood

Could you use CNG, (Compressed Natural Gas)?

Yes, but your fuel consumption to heat ratio is too low.  CNG does not have the necessary sustainable BTU's available to maintain the necessary heat against the boiler plate to evaporate the water fast enough to maintain the steam pressure.

Propane, Butane, Hydrogen, and Acetlene, all have the same problem.  

Now could they be used in a standard Internal Combustion Engine, in the same fashion the Diesel Engines are being used in the current locomotives?

Yes they can.  However, its the same problem.

Let me get into a little more depth here.

I have an A/S Degree in Automotive Technology.  I also hold certifications for Alternate Fuels.  

The issue is the matter of BTUs.  This is called British Thermal Units.  This is a measurement of how much energy any given type of fuel has available to it.  Fuels that are heavy in nature have a higher BTU Content hence meaning they have more energy to be given off.  The higher the BTU Content, the more efficent the fuel is for certain applications.  The lower the BTU Content, the faster the fuel is exhausted of its energy.

I know you have heard of folks running their cars on Natural Gas, Propane and Butane for years.  What you do not know is that these folks, yes are polluting less, but their vehicles loose about 1/3 of their efficency and milage.  This happens because the fuel is used up so quickly.

With Hydrogen Fuel on the horizon, this is probably going to be the answer for most of our fuel problems.  The issue is getting people to understand that we need to make a switch to Nuclear Power in order to get it.  The E-85 Corn Fuel, is merely a stop-gap, as is the Bio-Diesel issue.  These are fuels that are available, but their issue is the expense of production on a massive scale to meet our market demand.

So could this be done, yes.  Will it be done, probably in the near future.  But don't count on thise changes coming anytime soon.

Answer 2

A couple of ways.  One is make a product out of your idea, start a company and sell it.  Of course this is risk-prone, but that's one of the ways good ideas get filtered.

Another way is to write a technical article about it.  You make your money by being the person everyone wants to bring in as a consultant on the idea.

If you think there's some government "office of good ideas" that takes the ideas invented by millions of Americans and makes sure industry uses them... well, no such thing, but you're convince Congress of the need for it and start it.

Answer 3

one avenue to explore is university-related research and/or contacts.  my university has a world-renown railroad civil engineering program, and all the railroad companies work with the professors and the students on sponsoring various projects.  each week, people from railroad companies or consulting firms or suppliers are also on campus doing friday lunch seminars.

if you are old enough, you may even want to apply to be a univ student yourself in a railroad civil engineering program, then you can work on your idea, make presentations, write papers, and have contacts with all the railroad companies and supply manufacturers.

chances are, some student probably has thought of whatever your idea is.  but then again, maybe not, there is always new technology and ideas coming up.

im amazed at what some of the projects my friends are working on.  i am in urban planning and i am working on a transport network project, but i visit the engineering dept bcs i need their expertise for bridges, locomotives and cars, sensors, etc.

you could also contact a railroad or a supplier directly, or a government agency, or start your own business and market your idea.  but personally, i think your best bet would be to contact either uiuc's rr cee program, or contact the univ in your area that has a similar program (but it probably wont be as good as uiuc program, unless you look at MIT or berkeley).

Answer 4

The most efficient rail system in the world is the Swiss, where almost all the trains are electric, 70% of the power is generated by hydro stations and hydro-electric power is 70% efficient.

Diesel and electric trains are between 30 - 40% energy efficient.

A train is most efficient when it is working at maximum capacity, so getting more people to go by train is essential.

Diesel engines are being worked on and improved all the time, these days the builders are concentrating on reducing carbon emissions. That said, a diesel train hauling so many thousand tons of freight emits far less carbon than lorries hauling the same amount.

Electric trains are efficient users of energy but ultimately no more than the source of the power. Also the power as to overcome the resistance of the lines which take it from power station to the wires or 3rd rail, it has to pass through transformers, sub stations, etc. so to improve the efficiency of the electric train, the transmission of power to the train has to be improved.

Maglev trains are more efficient because they have very little friction to deal with, unlike a conventional electric train which has motors, which in turn act on gears, which turn the wheels, which have to overcome the inertia of the entire train. So, maglev trains are going to be part of the future, at least as far as high-speed passenger transit is concerned.

Get a hold of a copy of last month's 'Railway Magazine' if you can. There is a brilliant article entitled. 'How Green are our Trains' which looks at how energy-efficient trains actually are and how they could be improved.

Answer 5

Tough question, railroads are already quite efficient but there is alwasy room for improvement.

Is your idea somethign that a railroad can implement in it's operations or something of a mechanical nature that would require a change in the manufacture of new or modification of existing equipment?

If it is the first try calling any railroad near you and ask to speak with a trainmaster. Unfortunately, this will take a lot of persistence as most rainmasters already know everythign there is to be known and are not known for their listening skills.

If it's mechanical I am not sure, either the manufacturer of train cars or locomotives.

There are people interested but finding one and presenting your idea in a manner that catches their attention is going to be a trick.

Good Luck, we can always use new ideas.

Answer 6

It won't be done.

New advancements in technology in place on modern locomotives to address adhesion issues, combined with the inherent benefits of low co-efficient of friction, fuel economy and ability to handle heavy tonnage, make shipping by rail pretty hard to beat.

That's not to say that there are no improvements to be made, just that we're already at the edge of the envelope with the age old struggle against gravity, which is a constant throughout the Universe, with the possible exceptions of being under of the cloud of stUPidity locked in over UP headquarters in Omaha or where black holes are present...

New technology is in R & D for EPC braking systems, promising a reduction in stopping distances by up to a whopping 60%!  That's the good news...

The bad news is carriers will see this as a way to increase tonnage by 60% wherever possible...  net result in stopping distance = 0.  They'll argue the new technology will allow this now.  They have done it with EVERY IMPROVEMENT EVER MADE!

Pay attention.  Demand from your representatives that they give the teeth to the FRA to impose tonnage limits with the implemention of any new braking systems, otherwise the improvement to safety will be none at all.

Answer 7

Ok, electrify the railroads on the USA. I want that to happen and think that it should, however the government of the us wont listen. They are so stupid and money crazed and wont electrify them to save their lives (which they are doing now to extent). Electric lines are much more energy efficient and don't polute the environment like deisel ones. I know electricity has to be made for the lines but it is no where near as pollutive as the amonut of deisel trains that are used instead.

Here in the UK, most of the lines are electrified and it is a lot better and may i say faster anyway. So they could do a lot of good electrifying the rail lines over there. But they never will no matter how much it is needed!

Answer 8

You have to realize the odds are low that you have anything useful. so before you waste your time and others time, post your idea here and you will get honest comments on it.

But please, no perpetual motion, no magnetic motors, no wind turbines.

Answer 9

all of them in the US are already Yes the Diesel's are too. It's to start the most Fuel efficient way to travel/move fright. because they from the start were diesel electrics and the fact you are moving say a 150 truck trailers with 1 threw 4 engines.

the only way I could think of making it better or close to Zero emissions is for cattery (or electric wire) every ware make it all electric. with electric engines that like the "North Shore" (Chicago North Shore and Milwaukee Railroad) had that could charge batteries that allowed them to go off on no electrified sidings (steeple cab). http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.ph... and you then power all this electrified wire with Green Power sores like Wind,solar and any other green power source you can think of then it will be the greenest it can be.

But Plz keep in mind that tho this electric wire is green and dose give a lot of benefits. it dose cost allot of money for the railroad to set up and maintain such wire but after they start to make profits to over come this slit let down it works.