Illiterate ancestors signing marriage certificates?

Question

I was watching "Who do You Think You Are" earlier, and someone mentioned that if the people getting married were illiterate (i.e. couldn't read, write, or sign their name), they would put a mark beside their name, which was written by someone else. the example showed her name, and a cross beside it, that she supposedly had written instead of signing.

Is this true with all certificates? This may seem a stupid question, but I'd assumed they were all written by the same person, since all names on the certificates I've bought are written with VERY similar handwriting, so I assumed it was the registrar or something.

Answer 1

my great great grandmother sighned with a cross

dont know if she couldent write or couldent write in english

it was 1881

it just says the mark of and then a cross , i cant imagine life without reading books papers internet etc , makes me think how lucky we are now compared with then

at least she wasent brainwashed with propoganda though

Answer 2

I know in the UK the certificates we buy are all written by the same person in my experience, I'm fairly sure they were normally transcribed by the registrar.  The ones in the original parish registers however are in the same layout as a marriage certificate, but are normally written by hand, you can see the differences in people's handwriting - I've compared a few of mine, it's really cool to actually see my ancestors signatures!

Anyway about the crosses - the cross on the original would be where your ancestor actually made the mark, but like all the info on the certificate copy, the cross would be transcribed along with the rest of the info.  

The only exception is (I think) when they gave you a paper copy on the day - I have my great-grandparents 1929 marriage certificate and that's handwritten by the people concerned!  But I'd imagine that if I ordered one from the GRO then it would be a transcribed version of the certificate.

Hope this makes sense (it's 1am!)

Answer 3

When you order a certificate online from the ONS (Office of National Statistics) in Stockport, you usually get a photocopy from the original register.

But if you order directly from a local register office, the registrar or clerk will copy the details from the register onto a blank form.  This is usually done by hand, but some register office type the details.

Regarding the mark made by illiterate people.

In some circumstances, the person could be literate but their spouse not, so the literate spouse would say they could not read or write, in order not to show up the other person.

This often happened when it was the wife who could read and write and the husband couldn`t.  

So dont assume that when you see (the mark of) that it always means an illiterate person.

(The mark of) was not only found on marriage certificates.

I have a few birth and death certificates where the informant was illiterate.

It was not uncommon for marriage witnesses to be illiterate either, and they would be stated as (The Mark Of)

Answer 4

When I've bought Certificates from the local Superintendent Registrar, I've stood beside her while she found the entry in the Register, and copied all the details there and then, so everything is in her handwriting.

Two of my Gt. Gt. grandparents were boat people, working on the barges on the River Avon & Kennet Canal when they married in Bath (1852).  Both signed with a X.  I don't doubt that neither of them had learned to read or write since schooling for children of the cut was very sporadic.

Also watch out for errors - I have two on Family Certificates, one where my mother's Birth date was incorrect by 2 days on the entry (confirmed by Mum and the family) and when my father registered his mother's death, he is identified as her "father" not as "son"!

Answer 5

The certificate is only a copy of the details entered into the original marriage register at the Church or Register Office,

and would be in the handwriting of the Registrar or an employee of the General Register Office, depending on where you obtained the certificate.

If you want to see the original handwriting or mark made by the person who was married, and it must be their own mark or signature on the original for the marriage to be legal, you need to either examine the original register or a film or fiche facsimile of the original. It is very often the only example of the person's handwriting that you will ever see, many people who were illiterate practised writing their name just to be able to sign the marriage register. In England, of births, marriages and deaths, it is the only certificate that requires the true signature or mark of all the persons involved, including witnesses and the celebrant or registrar.

Answer 6

I have only seen it on marriage certificates, and I have also noticed that it is mainly the women in my family that couldn't write. There is not one  single male ancestor who has used the x as a mark of their signature.. I found that fascinating.

That's a good question.

Answer 7

This is strictly an opinion because I did not see the show you mentioned, but not everybody in the past were illiterate (or else colleges like Harvard, Yale, Oxford, etc. wouldn't have been in existence as early as they were. Nor would authors like Shakespeare, Thomas More, etc have written as much as they did). For those who were--usually in the poor,  rural areas where schools were not so abundant, the people getting married or whatever the case had to have a witness to the effect that the event took place on such-and-such a date at whatever time it was. The judge, minister, etc. would ask them if that was truly what they intended to do and if they said yes, then they were told to "make their mark" on a certain line.

     Back then, also, we didn't have notary publics to witness signatures, etc. and apply a stamp or raised seal that gives their name/ license number/and license expiration date. So, if the handwriting looked similar on the documents you mentioned, it very well could have been a registrar in a court house (or a clerk of court).

Answer 8

When an event is registered, several copies have to be made.

As far as marriages are concerned, there are as many as FOUR.

One is given to the happy couple on the day.

One is kept by the vicar and entered in the Parish Register.  When full, the register will usually find its way to the nearest local County Record Office.

A third copy is sent to the head regsitrar of the local Registration District and stored there.

A fourth copy gets sent to the GRO head office and is indexed there along with all the other national indexes.

Not all the copies are signed by the couple concerned - usually just the couples own copy, the church register and sometimes but not always, the local registrars copy.  The central GRO copy is usually a later transcription of the original certificate (though my mums certificate from 1973 had copies of their signatures on it and was ordered centrally online) and mostly written all in the same hand by an employee of the GRO and therefore most certificates ordered from the GRO (especially early ones) are usually written in a standard Victorian handwriting style and appear to be identical.  If you want a copy of your ancestors actual signature or "X" (as the case might be) then you have to look at the original source locally.