In Hold Em, is it possible to be drawing dead preflop?

Question

I don't think it's possible with 2 or 3 hands, but the question is what is the minimum number of hands which need to be played in order for someone to be drawing dead?

For instance, A8 vs 88 vs AA. A8 is certainly a longshot, but he could still draw for the A-high flush.

Also, 22 vs 22 vs 33 vs 33 seems hopeless for the 22s since they'd be trumped on both their flush and straight draws, but they could still easily chop the pot.

So that's the question....is it ever possible for someone to be drawing dead preflop? If so, what is the scenario? Try to find the one with the least amount of hands played.

Answer 1

I'm not seeing any. Using the 22/22/33/33 method, which would be the easiest run out of straight and better flush possibility. So by using that theory there could be a royal flush or straight flush on board so to eliminate that you'd have to have all 4 10s and all 4 6s in play. So say you give 4 players 10 6 suited each. Then you'd have to eliminate all the 4 of a kinds, plus the full houses into play just to eliminate chops, so you'd need at least 2 of each denomination (A, K, Q...) Then there would be all the flush and higher straight possibilities on board to chop it.... no way, too much calculation there. I think in order for a drawing dead preflop you'd need more people at the table than the game can allow. You could have no more than 22 people at a table, if you use the burn a card before community cards rule.

>> Note for Pretty Vegas. Nice theory but you said no chance to split the pot? How about the numerous straight flushes you've excluded, say 3,4,5,6,7 of clubs on board? Or diamonds for that matter.

Or to Vegas Matt. The asker is using the chop pot as an out. Even using the 6 player theory, there are tons of on board chops available. Straights to 10 or lower, 4 of a kinds with an A on board.

Answer 2

Yes, it is possible to be drawing dead before the flop with 10 players even if you are holding Big Slick!

If player 1 has A hearts K spades,

Player 2 has A spades A diamonds ,

Player 3 has K hearts K clubs,  

Player 4  has 10 hearts 10 clubs

Player 5 has  10 spades 2 hearts

Player 6 has 10 diamonds 3 hearts

Player 7 has 4 hearts 5 hearts

Playr 8 has 6 hearts 7 hearts

Player 9 has 8 hearts 9clubs

Player 10 has Q spades J clubs

Player 1 is drawing dead.  The case Ace and/or King give players 2 and 3  a set, which beats a pair or 2 pair.

There is no straight possible because all the 10s are out of the deck.

There is no possible flush because there are not 4 hearts left in the deck.

There is no way to split the pot because all denominations are in play, so the board cannot get 4 of a kind which would have tied with Ace high.

Answer 3

No. you always have outs pre-flop.

Look at AA vs 27 off suit, strongest vs weakest possible starting hands. 27 still has 7 to 1 odds of drawing out.

Answer 4

No, you always have at least a slim chance of chopping.  The worst you could be is an under pair vs an over pair if the other 2 cards you'd need to hit a set are already out.

Ex.

You have 55, someone has KK, someone folds 5-7 and someone else folds 5-3.  You can't beat the pair, but here is a slim chance that you could chop if the board shows quads with a K or A, or X full of Ks or As.

Granted, you'd have to hit he board perfectly and the odds of that happening are pretty slim, but it is possible.

Answer 5

How about this. Two players have pocket aces. Two players have KQ, unsuited. Two players have pocket jacks. One player has QQ and one has KK.

Pocket Aces are are huge favorite. Both players with JJ are longshots, but could hit the 7 to J straight.

All of the other 4 players are drawing dead. No flush possibility that the Aces don't beat. No straight and no trips available for any of the remaining players.

EDIT: I think I over-complicated it. Try this one: Two players with pocket aces, two players with pockets kings, and two players with pocket queens. That's 6 players total.

Both players with pocket kings are dead. Any flush would get beat by someone with aces, and no straight available. Both players with queens would need the 8 to queen straight.

That seems to be the minimum players needed.