Is 'Dressage' and 'Trust' linked?

Question

Hi there,

I know a lot of people will not agree with my opinion, but that is why I am asking this question.

Please tell me your views truthfully, backed up with complete evidence. I don't want to provoke arguments! Just other opinions on the matter. :)

http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=hkbsodlmfMI - My video "Is 'Dressage' and 'Trust' linked?"

Thank you very much, I welcome opposing views.

SpottyPony

PS. Please rate via YouTube.

Answer 1

i think your video has a strong point

but sometimes people just have to use bits now when i get my horse i would get the halter put it on the horse get 2 lead ropes put it on the sides n then ride around occasionally

loved the video has a very strong point  

Answer 2

I kinda agree with you but I think their are so many exceptions that it is hard to say that all bits, spurs and crops are bad.

I dont think these bits are cruel in giving hands:

http://www.littleonestackshop.com/images...

http://www.littleonestackshop.com/images...

http://www.dkimages.com/discover/preview...

I also dont think these are:

http://www.smartpakequine.com/images/pro...

http://www.tackroominc.com/images/JPJoin...

These bits fall on my bad list:

http://www.3gemstack.com/catalog/00650.j...

http://www.bitsnmore.com/images/catalog/...

These bits are also PROHIBITED for dressage law under USEF rules

Spurs are the same way. If they are used properly and not abused, then I dont see a problem. I think some people take advantage of their horses but then I see people who spend hourse upon hours working with their horses to achieve the correct frame AND to bond with their horses. Bits, spurs and crops are tools not measures of disipline.

In a couple of the pictures the horses were freely moving forwand with ears pricked. They seemed pleased with themselves and their jobs. One picture in particular stood out because it came up right after I read something about tight reins. In the picture the horses nose was at the vertical with the reins loose.

Obviously some people are going to ride with gimicks but there are people who ride correctly with double bridles, spurs and crops. They are few and far between but they are there.  

Answer 3

I don't think you quite understand how these people use their spurs, whips, and bits. Have you ever ridden dressage? From your interpretation of the sport and of the pictures that you used in your video, you have never ridden dressage and you do not understand the techniques used in order to perform those movements.

One, the spurs. I ride with spurs, I'll admit it! They have a 1/2-3/4 inch shank and have a circular flat end. These are called Prince of Wales Spurs and are the most commonly used spurs. You might look at me and think "Oh, my god, she is abusing her horse!!" Well, I am not! Dressage riders use their spurs differently than everyone else uses spurs, everyone else turns their heels in and digs into their horses side, giving the sensation of sharp pointy metal object being driven into your side! This is painful, and dressage people don't do this! Dressage riders keep theirs heels parallel to the horses side, so when they apply their spur and their leg at the same time, everyone else just uses their spurs without the leg, the horse feels the leg as well as the spur, however, this time the spur is not as harsh as everyone else does. If you sit with a partner with your hand held out and you partner points their finger and pushes your arm while keeping their finger aimed at you, that is what the horse feels, and you will notice that it doesn't hurt!

Now, bits. Kaite, the first three bits that you posted are the only bits that you posted that are legal to use under USEF/USDF/FEI rule, all of the others are illegal. The bits are only used to mantain contact between your hands and the horse's mouth. Without this contact then the horse would have no idea how to place their head and if you notice, one of the pictures you had where the horse was performing the Spanish Walk, a very highly elegant movement and very collected movement. The horse's head was extremely high up in the air and when the horse's head is high up in the air or above the vertical, then the back sinks and hallows out. This term is called absolute elevation and does nothing to the horse at all, it actually teaches the horse to evade contact and relative elevation, which is the correct and true form of collection where the horse raises his back and lowers his hind end. If there is no contact with the mouth then the horse cannot achieve this relative elevation.

Now on the subject of the video that "Whatever" posted, it is a very good video because the only hand movement that you see Andreas Helgestrand perform is to create a bend in his mare's neck. Matinee doesn't open her mouth out of pain like you imagine it, she is opening and closing her mouth in a chewing sensation in acceptance to the bit. He is not at all sawing on his horse's mouth! You are right in that sawing is not an acceptable practice, and which unfortunately alot of riders gain because it is a quick fix for them. Any rider who uses this method and thinks of it as a positive method is not a dressage rider and should immediately learn how to break this habit.

Now, you are thinking, why the curb bit? The curb bit is actually required in the FEI Levels (excluding FEI Young Horse and FEI Pony Levels) and therefore the riders must use them, that's the FEI's decision and if you don't like it then go to HRH Princess Haya Bint Al Hussein of Jordan and complain to her about it, since she is the President of the FEI, which is the largest international ruling organization on Equestrian Sports in the world! The curb bit is a way to tune up the horse's collection to the exact point. The curb should only be used in highly collected movements such as the piaffe, passage, and pirouette, but only limited. Many riders overuse the curb because it is quick fix. Those riders should be using their seat, which is correct, and not their curb.

Onto whips! Whips are actually not allowed in the FEI Levels, but are more of a training aid. Whips are designed so that the rider does not have interfer with the horse's mouth when they use them, and when they are used, correctly, they are only used for a slight tap, and mainly only to redirect the horse's attention or to aid a weak leg. Some riders, such as my ex-trainer, will use this whips as a discapline(sp?) aid and will use it as if it is a crop, which is clearly abuse! When used as a reinforcement to the leg, both of the leg and the whip are used harmoniously. (Is that a word?)

Again, I think that you just don't know how this artifical aids are used, and when they are used correctly you see that they are not a form of punishment and that there is actually a sign of trust with the horse. I hope that after my very long explaination you have a better understanding of how dressage actually works. A good dressage rider rides from her seat and legs while the hands are only used sparingly, to become a good dressage rider requires alot of patience and good training. When a person who wishes to become a good dressage rider loses this patience and self-control, they often become frustrated and resort to quick fixes, such as sawing, overuse of the hands, and incorrect use of spurs, whips, and the curb bit. This can also result from a trainer (such as two of my ex-trainers) who has lost their patience and uses these quick fixes as regular training and then teaches these quick fixes to perhaps otherwise patient and kind riders who have the potential to become good dressage riders.

I praise you for keeping your head even when someone brings up an opposing position! I have noticed that alot of horse people become defensive when an opposing argument is brought up against them and usually end up causing a big whole fight that severs sometimes good relationships. Your behavior in handling an opposing argument is very mature and respectfull!!

Okay that's too much typing! Why doesn't Yahoo give a character's limit on answers?

Answer 4

Your video clearly has a strong stand point.

It also poses a harsh stereotype.

In horseback riding we always have to look to see if our specific discipline needs to be improved on, in order to keep the animal's best interests at heart.

There are elements in dressage that I personally am not in agreeance with. This includes the fact that double bridles are required, which really is a shame.

I say it's a shame, but really I am not too concerned about it.

I was also not bothered by the pictures in your video, excluding those of rolkur. I saw pictures of horses performing impressive movements, generally with forward ears.

You make sooo many references to too tight reins that are needed to "control" the horses. This is what we call contact. What is being performed by these horse requires exceptional balance and control. I ride my mare with contact in order to keep her moving effectively and with balance so as to safely jump her (and yes i saw the pictures of the people jumping like two feet on horses without bits), but I could also jump on her with a loose leather halter and a lead line clipped to the side and do all the "complex manouvers" those people were doing (umm cantering around, standing on a block, and jumping over a log, these are complex manouvers wtf).

This video rang out to me as "theeeey're using bits" - gasp - "no bits is bettter".

I don't like the bitless bridles one bit. I guess I have a problem with someone putting something on a horse's face that exerts pressure by a) (hackmore) putting pressure on the sensitive nasal bones of a horse's face (fact: if you are cranking on the hackmore, you will stop your horse's breathing) b) (the bitless bridle) just a gimmick. puts pressure on the nerves on the side of the horses face to push them in the other direction. c) (rope halters) give me a reall halter any day. A rope halter is fine to use for training to lead (cause it really is just a training tool) but i am more impressed with someone who rides their horse in a plain old halter to this training tool.

Give me a plain old snaffle anyday... oh wait bits are cruel... is their even a reason behind this?

But I'm a cruel person. I use a bit, I ride in contact, I have used stud chains, spurs and whips. I had no problems with the pictures of "cruel dressage" you posted excluding rolkur.

I have also used bitless methods (not impressed) and my horse also does go well enough in just a halter. (actually i can ride without the halter enough that i too).

So please watch this video. It is Andreas Helgstrand and Blu Hors Matine. It's really worth watching. I've never seen a horse love their job more. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKQgTiqhP...

Sorry if I come of harsh. I would also like to add that in this video although the rider carries a whip and wears spurs, I don't see him jabbing his horse around like you say that dressage riders have to.

Answer 5

i agree with you to an extent...now i completly do not approve of using crops,HARSH bits(bitless bridles too) and spurs simply because they are for lazy horseman.if you had your horse on the proper diet and exersize program you wouldnt have a "hot" or "lazy" horse and if your horse was naturally spooky then there is things u can do to fix tht and not just put a mean bit on him for wat ur lack of knowledge.and spurs are for ppl who dont want to take the time to get their horses sensitive to their leg.and crops are pointless because with proper training and care horses will NEVER just "act up" they arent like humans in that way.but i DONT agree with the wole trust concept i think u have it mixed up with the word submission, many of the riders u showed(NOT including the ones preforming hyperfelexion)are just using those things because they have failed to get their horses submission and are attempting to control them which is IMPOSSIBLE. but the riders doing hyperflexion...i think they make the video confusing because if a horse has that much submission to their rider to overflex then that has to be lots of submision and "trust" but i do not agree with hyperfelxion but on the other hand i dont go around shouting @ ppl who use it...if they want to ruin their companion(horse) then tht just means less competition for me =P

Answer 6

i favorited and rated. i agree with you, i hate dressage its horrible. my horse is still green so i need a bit but i found the softest one ever. its a french-linked eggbutt snaffle flavored like apple and i keep it in no longer than 30 min at a time.

Answer 7

The more you learn about the wide world of horses, you will realize that there is abuse in EVERY discipline. Dressage, unfortunately, is no exception, although it is supposed to be about harmony, balance and yes, trust.

The fact that there are a few nasty people doing it to stroke their own ego does not invalidate the principles of dressage.

To answer your question about the bits.... the double bridle, when used correctly, is a valuable tool for enhancing the communication between an advanced horse and rider.  As a horse rises through the levels, the "language" of the aids developed between him and the rider become ever more complex.  The double bridle provides a means of an increased 'vocabulary' between horse and rider. The rider is able to provide a wider range of cues than with a snaffle bridle... there are many more variables of aids.  The double bridle is not intended to be harsh or painful, but provide that wider range of communication.

The mandatory use of spurs at the upper levels is also intended to hone communication.  Rather than the rider's entire lower leg brushing against the horse, a touch of the spur here or there provides a much more specific cue.  

Whips are not allowed in the highest levels of competition, and this is because they are more of a training tool. Whips are not meant for punishment, but again for communication...a tap says "move your rear over please" or "activate your hind leg now".

Unfortunately there are selfish, stupid, uncaring people all over the world.  Some of them have chosen dressage as their avenue of personal ego fulfillment and will do anything to win, including abusing the dressage tools of the double bridle, the whip, the spurs, in a painful way.  That is not what dressage is supposed to be about.

Don't judge an entire sport by its few bad apples.

There are many, many other riders and trainers who strive for nothing more than the perfect harmony with their horse, who train with caring hearts, whose horses enjoy their job and are eager to please and look forward to learning new things. Many riders who want to learn the 'classical' and 'correct' way, and shun any technique that would inflict discomfort on their horse. I strive to be one of those kinds of dressage riders and I take pleasure in knowing that my horses look forward to seeing me, they nicker when they see me, and they go to work knowing that I am fair and will not hurt them, and look forward to their reward for a job well done.