Is Dame Helen Mirren Right about Date Rape?

Question

In the newspaper "The Independent" todayI read the following:

"Dame Helen's contention was that a woman who voluntarily ended up in a man's bedroom and engaged in sexual activity – but then said no to intercourse – could not seriously expect to take that man to court on a charge of rape if he ignored her last-minute insistence that she did not want full s*x.

That had happened to her "a couple of times" 40 years ago when she was a budding actress. She had not reported the incidents to police because "you couldn't do that in those days". And perhaps, she suggested, that was not such a bad thing. "

Full article here:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/is-helen-mirren-right-about-date-rape-915788.html

What do you think?

Answer 1

This story makes me so angry because I know a lot of commentators are going to come out in support of what she is saying.

However, I believe it is a dangerous thing to say.  It is only recently that the law is beginning to force men to take responsibility for their sexual endeavours (i think they are proposing new laws where a man will have to prove the woman consented).  This is long overdue - for too, too long the emphasis has been on the woman and what she did or did not do - did she wear short skirts? Was she drunk? Did she get an unlicensed taxi cab home? was she walking in the dark alone? All this puts the blame onto women - it makes women responsible for any consequences of their supposedly stupid or careless actions.  But if we are equal in this society then don't we have the right to go around freely and not have the responsibility of rape on our shoulders? There is only one person responsible for rape: The rapist.

I think the reason why so many people agree with Helen Mirren is because they have old fashioned ideas about rape.  They feel sympathy for the victim ONLY when she was attacked by a stranger as she was minding her own business, and preferably at knifepoint or something similarly violent.  We seem to crucify women who have s*x lives - like we feel only "good" women who don't have s*x are entitled to our sympathy when it comes to rape.  Well, guess what - women have s*x in the 21st century and they deserve protection - men need to take responsibility for their actions and any decent man will ensure the woman he is taking to bed knows 100% what she is doing.

Furthermore, we are not talking here about woman "changing their minds" after having s*x.  No, that is NOT rape and no one EVER said it was.  We are talking here about men who may make advances on a woman and at whatever point prior to the act she changes her mind...that is her RIGHT and anyone who is saying it is NOT is removing a woman's autonomy.  So you only get to have a choice up to a certain point...after that, you don't get to change your mind? Ridiculous!  Of COURSE its rape.  Also, does Helen Mirren also think then, that women who are in relationships or married cannot be raped by their husbands or partners? Because this form of rape is the most common - the vast amount of rapists are men who are supposed to be in loving relationships.  But if Helen Mirren thinks that you can't prosecute a man whom you have willingly taken to your bed then how can you prosecute a husband or a boyfriend? This would be so, so wrong and illustrates how wrong her argument is - even if you take a man to your bed, you should still have control over your body and what happens to it.

We need to get over the idea that a rapist is some dodgy, creepy guy lurking in the bushes at night.  We support a culture of rape because we remove the blame from men's shoulders when it comes to their sexual behaviour.  We encourage men to pursue women, tell them that their sexuality is driven by raging hormones they have little control over and tell them they should have lots and lots of "conquests".  Then we turn to the women and give them the responsibility of behaving "appropriately" so they protect themselves from this raging male sexuality.  That is why the average rapist is a normal, average guy who may often not even think he is doing anything wrong...except being a little coercive to get what he "needs".....if men think a rapist is some violent monster they will never see how they do not take responsibility for their behaviour and how they are complicit in encouraging rape culture.

How we can prosecute date rape is a more blurry matter - it is difficult to prove.  But that doesn't change the nature of rape just cos it's difficult to prove.  Changing your mind at the last minute is your RIGHT and any man who ignores that is a rapist and is no better than any man lurking in the bushes or taking his wife or girlfriend by force. End of.

Answer 2

No, I don't agree at all. I think if someone sqays 'No' at any point it should stop. And just because someone wants a kiss and cuddle, or a bit of foreplay doesn't mean they want full s*x. If one person says no, then if it continues then it is against that persons will.

I think that when people get drunk and end up sleeping together, that;'s not rape but I don't agree with what she says.

Also this is negative to men: it's saying that if you 'lead a man on' then he'll be this ogre which will commit rape!

Answer 3

I disagree.

I think the Dame's views are colored by the time she was raised.

There were times I was in my ex's room, while we were dating. We'd been fooling around and didn't discover that neither of us had a condom until later. I refused s*x under those circumstances but offered other ways to bring things to a conclusion... ways that won't get me pregnant.

It's a good thing for him he took my refusal seriously! Rape is rape.

Answer 4

You were not there.  Neither was I.  IT IS UP TO THE JURY....people like you and I will hear the story and pass judgement.

Answer 5

If the guy (let's say) slipped something in the girl's drink, then, it would be rape.  This happened to my friend's daughter, btw.  They found her on a field the next morning, luckily, alive.  

I think what Mirren is saying is "girls, grow up", plain and simple.  

Answer 6

I think Helen Mirren has some issues. If you listen to people like her, the lines will be redrawn, and we might actually eventually be able to relate to cultures who think a woman needs 4 male witnesses to prove that she has been raped. Translation: it's nearly impossible to have 4 male witnesses watching a woman get raped unless she was being gang raped. So therefore, rape does not exist, or if it does exist, it is always the woman's fault, and so she must be punished for it.

A lot of women do very foolish things that could likely place them in the position of being raped, but one should never, ever sympathize with rapists who have control over their own actions.

Answer 7

I guess it could technically be rape but if i was on a jury I would hang it. No way would i ruin a mans life cause a woman can't tell if she will go all the way when she almost completed most of the race.

Answer 8

Women need to be more responsible..  Randomly labeling a man as a rapist is just flat out wrong and ridiculous..

Answer 9

Wow, that's disappointing. Of course she's wrong. Sane men are quite capable of controlling their sexual urges. If they can't they should be in a mental institution.

I've had a man not been able to get it up because he's been too drunk before. I was ready for s*x. Should I have taken my frustration out on him? Maybe shoved an object or two up his a**s (against his will)?

A woman (and a man) has the complete right to say no at any point, even when they are actually having s*x. If the man is hurting the woman, should he be allowed to continue to cause her physical pain for however long he wants to?

It appears we have some rapist sympathisers (and/or potential/actual rapists) in our midst - but then we knew that already. Now we know why there is only a 5% or 6% conviction rate - and it has nothing to do with false accusations.

Thing - I completely agree.

Answer 10

I think she is from a different time, and has fully bought into the idea that she "owes" s*x to a man because she engaged in foreplay. I think that's sad.

What I find truly horrifying is that there are people who would let a rapist go because a woman changed her mind. Because, you know, that's just not an option. If you let a man put his hand up your shirt, you better d**n well go whole hog, or expect to be forced to!

Psychopath.

@ Colonel Reb

Actually, no offense, but I think you misunderstand what that "feminist blogger" is saying. She means that if "there is no excuse for rape," then you can't say that "women, being responsible for their own actions, hold some responsibility when it comes to rape, at least in some situations," (that is what the argument generally is). Women, like everyone else, are responsible for their OWN actions. Men who do not take no for an answer, are responsible for the rape they commit. No one else is responsible. Sure, they get hot and heavy, and he "wants it," but are you saying that he is not responsible because she got him all worked up? Are women responsible for their own rape because they did not want penetration? And the men are not responsible at all?

Colonel

Okaay....but what does any of that have to do with the question? The *point* is the inherent contradiction in asking that women be responsible for her "actions" (and therefore taking some of the blame) and saying that there is no "excuse" for rape. You think there are double standards in our society regarding women and responsibility, ok, whatever, but what does that have to do with THIS? Let's stick to this topic.

Colonel

Ok, so you think that men who go ahead and force a woman who says no is not capable of controlling himself, and that women who dare to decide what ultimately happens to their body is partly responsible for her own rape. And the natural progression from that is that you think that women owe men s*x, and that any women who decides to engage in a little heavy petting should just go ahead and submit to the guy's wishes, right? Never mind her wish to NOT have s*x. Just so we're clear.

Answer 11

No means no.  And if one persists after someone says no, its rape.  So what if she (or he) stopped at the last minute?  So the man is earned the right to continue against her consent simply because he's all "riled up"?  Why should he be allowed to continue?  Why would HIS needs be above hers?

She did not want "full blown s*x".  No matter what reason, under any circumstances or situation if he (or she) disregards her (or his) no, that is rape.  And he or she should do the time for the crime.

Anyone who says otherwise is sick, in my opinion.  

Answer 12

rape is rape...sorry!

Answer 13

Practically speaking, if a woman said "no" at the last moment and the man went ahead against her wishes, there is no way for her to prove that she was raped. It was only the two of them there, and it will be her word against his.

Ethically and morally speaking, no means no, and any decent man will respect that. On the other hand, people should not be getting into bed with one another unless they are sure about it to begin with.

Answer 14

Deep down she wanted to be taken. You could tell by what she was wearing!

Answer 15

Firstly, I would like to have been able to read Ms. Mirren's words, rather than exerpts which may be taken out of context.  This article makes assumptions about her words and their intent....

Non consentual s*x is rape.  And date rape IS rape, to be sure.  But I also believe that the term rape is used far too often, and inappropriately.  And we have FINALLY seen cases where the accuser has been proven to be malicious and false in her accusations.  Sadly, their victims are branded for life....

Women need to be smarter, and need to take more responsibility with their own safety.  To go to a man's bedroom for foreplay - with no intention of having sexual intercourse - is akin to playing russian roulette.  And in the case of russian roulette - is it the gun manufacturer who is prosecuted for the shooting?  I think not...

Answer 16

I think if I go into a shop to buy something, get my purse out and then change my mind, and the shopkeeper takes my money anyway, using physical violence, threats, drugs or blackmail, I would have grounds for having the shopkeeper arrested.

So why should it be different when it comes to a decision about whether I want to share my body?

Cheers :-)

Answer 17

That's probably true in a lot of cases, but it should be expected that anyone who refuses to stop at any time is doing something wrong.

Answer 18

Think about it, think about it. "Leading men on", right. Anyone who says that has never been young or drunk. Could you have automatically distrusted him? Yeah, but say he's your friend. Or he's really nice. And you're young and a little bit flattered he's so interested in you, and maybe you believe whatever reason he used to lure you in. That somehow means you did something wrong? Should you never been alone with a man in his residence? Sorry... we all have male friends. It's their fault, and ONLY their fault, if they betray our confidence.

She's right that you can't expect a guilty verdict, because unless he raped you forcefully enough to do some damage, or in front of someone, there isn't going to be any evidence, and even if he ***** you up pretty bad, it was "rough s*x", right?

Answer 19

It's rape, but women shouldn't be leading the man on in the first place.  What do they think is going to happen?  Of course he's going to want it.  That doesn't excuse it, but come on, think before you do something stupid.

In her case, though, she was raped, because she said on at least one of the occasions she was locked in the room.  And she admits as much.

I loved the quote from the "feminist blogger" that basically says it's impossible to hold women accountable for their actions and want to be against rape.  That's like saying you want to hold men accountable for their actions, but can't be against murder of men.  It's stupid.  But it does confirm something I've noticed on here:  when you say women should be held responsbile for their actions, many people will vehemently oppose you and call you a sexist.  It's happened to me not once, not twice, but too many times to count on this very website, although usually on other issues besides rape.  It just gives evidence to what I've been thinking for a while, that (many) feminists don't really want women to be judged for their actions, they want them to be able to do whatever the h**l they want.

***MAIN ANSWER ENDS HERE***

Joy- Actually, I know what she meant.  I kind of went off down a different road with it.  I stand by what I said.  There's nothing that has gotten me more heat on this board than suggesting that women are responsible for their actions, except probably my stance on abortion, and that is kind of connected to my belief that women are responsible for their actions.

I'm sorry, but I don't believe most people do want women to be judged like men.  When a woman kills her husband, people immediately look to what he did to her to drive her that way, traditionalists and feminists alike.  When a woman cheats on her husband, he obviously wasn't giving her what she needed, but you can't reverse that argument when a man cheats on his wife.  Those are just two examples.  It happens all the time.

And don't even get me started about reversing the situations.

Joy- Actually I do think that a woman who purposely leads a man on and then "leaves him hanging," so to speak, is partly responsible for what happens.  That may not happen very often, but it does happen.  And women who drink heavily in public should know what they're doing to themselves.  If you stick your hand out and touch a snake, don't be surprised when the thing bites you (assuming you know it's alive).

I'm NOT condoning rape, but a lot of rapes could be prevented if women used some common sense.  It's no different than any other crime.  Yes, there are some rapes that are completely unavoidable, but many are avoidable somewhere down the line.

I didn't want to say that because people tend to misinterpret that and say you're either condoning rape or don't feel bad for people who get raped.  There's the "on-topic" part of it for you.

Joy- See why I didn't want to say it?  You're taking it farther than I meant.  What I'm saying is, women ought to know what they're doing.  If a woman leads a man on like that, it's going to be hard for him to "shut down," for lack of a better term.  

No, I don't think a woman should have to just submit to a man.  And in Helen Mirren's case, she was locked in the room.  That is definitely rape.  But if a woman leads a man on, she is partly responsible for getting him worked up.  That's what I'm saying.  If he throws her down and beats the daylights out of her to have s*x with her, he's raped her.

I'm talking about really serious foreplay here, not just petting.

Answer 20

I caught this yesterday in the online Daily Mail (accidentally of course). I have to say she seems confused, but has a point. If a woman takes off her clothes and gets into bed with a man why on earth doesn't she want s*x?

Of course on the other hand, if I got ready to play badminton and then on the court decided that I'd changed my mind. It wouldn't be okay if the other players forcibly made me play.

Scale that up to sexual intercourse and the problems are apparent.

Answer 21

Rape is rape.. but it's a stupid decision to lead a man on.