Is Jesus the personification of Jewish ideals?

Question

Then the concept became flesh in the minds of later believers?

Answer 1

As everyone else Jewish said, there is no such thing as a perfect personification of Jewish ideals.  The idea of perfection, & sin as it's counterpart, are a Christian focus (obsession).  They aren't a part of Judaism.  

Judaism does not deny humanly traits -- it is the opposite -- a guidebook for living a more elevated life within those humanly traits.  It does not deny s*x (the way much of Christanity calls it sinful).  It teaches that it's excellent, when done morally.

Our reading of our book includes focus on the humanness of our greatest leaders, Moses, David, Solomon....  Often the point in our discussions is to look at them as humans, with inperfections.  Our goal in bettering ourselves is within the confines of being human & it's natural limits.  

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I keep thinking of that last supper where he taked about turning his body into bread & his blood into wine.  That is completely opposite to & grostque version of Judaism.

I don't know if that is the Paul created Jesus or the presumed original Jesus.  If it was the "presumed original Jesus", his words right there would disqualify him completely.  It includes total arrogance in a human.  Magic for no real purpose to help others directly under God's guidance.  And making a human into an object of worship.

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Eyptile

Your answer is interesting & makes fun points to read.  On the Jewish answers, you seem to have missed that they are addressing very human traits that were part of Jezus of Nazareth, not the trait's of Paul's Jezus.  However, very good answer (& thanks for the book list -- looks like good reading).

Very interesting question & answers.

Answer 2

You have an excellent question. I wish I could say yes but truthfully the answer is no. The priests of the temple were far from please with Jesus. He constantly broke the rules of the sabbath, he ignored the first commandement G-d gave man - to be fruitful and multiply, He was sporatic with charity, he had a very bad temper, and he was alittle arrogant. Remember when the ill woman touch his garment and he was angry and demanded to know who touched him? It would have been nice to at least be a role model for judiasm but he was not even that. It really is no wonder that many Christians do not observe the Sabbath or even taught how.

Answer 3

Well,just a handful of recollection from comparative theology classes-

he insulted and disrespected his mother. In public, no less.

He directly rejected and insulted gentiles. (Note, it was PAUL who went to the gentiles. If we assume the xian ideology that Paul recieved his orders 'by revelation' from a dead jezus, then we must also realize that would mean jezus changed his mind at some point. Which begs the question, what else did he change his mind about, xian friends?)

He plagiarized the ideas of others as if they were his own.

He incited violence.

He most likely violated the sabbath for unacceptable reasons (and saving another's life IS a reason, I'm not sure where xians get that idea from, but as I recall jezus had far lesser 'reasons')

Not to mention supposedly refusing marriage and procreation, as Michelle noted above.

So no, I'd have to say he did NOT come anywhere close to personifying Jewish ideals.

Answer 4

On the off chance that you'd like an answer from an actual Jewish person:

No, he isn't - in fact, the opposite is true.  From the various writings in the NT, Jesus may or may not have observed the Sabbath, was sexually abstinent, and possibly said the kosher laws were irrelevant.  Any one of those three things alone would have tagged him as a lousy Jewish role model, by any definition.  Judaism is a religion of commandments, given to us by G-d.  The moment Jesus said there was a new covenant and the laws were irrelevant (if he did say so - many people believe he didn't, and that that came from Paul), he would have been considered an apikorus - basically a heretic - someone who actively rejects G-d's law.  

Even many of his statements about peace and love are against the Torah.  The Torah law is "an eye for an eye" - that any assault must be dealt with in equal measure.  This is essentially the opposite of "turn the other cheek."  There are many other similar examples of this.  Jesus was not concerned with the Torah's view of justice, but only with the more abstract notion of love.  

In other words, Jesus very well may be the personification of CHRISTIAN ideals.  But there was very little religiously Jewish about him.  

Answer 5

Why do so many NON JEWS feel they get to answer FOR Jews?

They don't.

Jesus was certainly NOT the 'personification of jewish ideals'. Nobody is. Even Moses, our greatest prophet, was just a normal MAN, with flaws. In Judaism G-d alone is perfect.

Jesus taught basic Judaism. He got 'love thy neighbour' from the Jewish Torah, where it appeared thousands of years BEFORE Jesus was even born.

And only a tiny, tiny sect of Jews ever followed Jesus. The rest didn't even know of him; remember, he was one of MANY young Jewish preachers claiming to be Maschiach at that time.

http://www.ajewwithaview.com

Answer 6

No one is the personification of Jewish ideals, but the concepts of Paul were heretical to Jewish ideals.  Jesus never claimed to be God.  He claimed to be the son of God just the same as everyone else.  We are all children of God.

Jews cannot believe that Jesus was "god" and remain Jewish, because such a belief would be complete idolatry, and appears closer to the Greco-Roman pagan beliefs where gods took on human form and had relations with humans.  The problem is that endemic in Christianity is a level of arrogance and conceit that they have the absolute truth.  So convinced are they of this that they will go to any length to convert people to their faith.  That being the case, they cannot, if they are truly being faithful to their own beliefs, stop until they have accomplished this goal.

The man the Christians worship may have been a good person, and he may have taught many good things. (Although I hasten to point out that there are many teachings in the Christian Bible that are completely unacceptable to Orthodox Jews, and incompatible to the teachings of the Torah.) But he was not the Messiah for whom we await and have long awaited. He may have been crucified, and that's a horrible thing. But that merely proves to us that he was not the Messiah.

He was not the son of G-d any more than we all are; precisely no more or less. The very thought is repugnant to a Jewish person. G-d having a son in that manner? We shudder at the suggestion.

Nor do we believe he was resurrected. But even if he was, that would not make him the Messiah.

All this that is claimed about Jesus is irrelevant. It has nothing to do with the Messiah. There will indeed be a resurrection, but not at the time of the Messiah's coming. That will be later. Much later.

The Jewish faith has no place for most of the Christian Messiah beliefs. Nor is there any way to reconcile Jesus with the Jewish concept of the Messiah. The two concepts have very little in common.

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Answer 7

Yes, and later believers had to "modify" his original message to fit their idea of passing punishment on to the innocent. Jesus never taught that. More on my bio.

Answer 8

I believe that's exactly what happened.  He led a movement to inspire the Jews to a deeper spiritual understanding of the law, rather than a legalistic one, to embrace the *message* of the law, in other words.  And people turned him into God.  

Answer 9

If the ideal is love and harmony between law and love, then yeah.

Not sure what the Jewish ideals are now, they seem to have changed in the last thousand years.

Answer 10

Wow....that's a tough one.  A lot depends on whether you are talking about Jesus of Nazareth, or the manufactured Jesus Christ of Paul.  And whether we can ever know, with certainty, whether Jesus of Nazareth was more a supporter of the Pharisees (mistakenly referred to as 'hypocrites')  and their intent to clarify and codify the law, or a supporter of the Sadducees and their insistance on Scripture, Temple Ritual and the 'sacrosanct' nature of the priesthood, especially the High Priest....who was, actually and  usually a Roman apointee, and considered by many 'Orthodox' Jews, a traitor and figure of contempt.  

Jesus of Nazareth, in everything we can know about him, was ORTHODOX to the core.  And if the bible can be believed, even at the age of 12, he knew the law inside and out, and was able to dialogue with the elders in the synagogue.  That, in and of itself, mitigates against the notion that he came to found a NEW religion, diametrically opposed to Orthodox Jewish  ideals.

Jesus of Nazareth, NEVER claimed to be God, or even a UNIQUE son of God...anymore than any annointed king of Israel was called a 'begotten son of God.  He may have been persuaded to think of himself as the Jewish Messiah, but that NEVER included the idea of his own divinity..a notion that would have been totally anathema to an Orthodox Jew.  

The Jewish Messiah, as prophesied in the Hebrew bible, was to be "a 'human' leader who would restore the Jewish monarchy, drive out the Roman invaders, set up an independent Jewish state, and inaugurate an era of peace, justice and prosperity (known as the kingdom of God) for the whole world" [Macoby: The Mythmaker-Paul and the Invention of Christianity]

Jesus of Nazareth accomplished none of this.  It was Paul who manufactured the Messiah/God bit that has plagued Christianity ever since.

Jesus of Nazareth was born a Jew, lived as a Jew, and died as a Jew reciting verses from the Hebrew Bible (Psalms).  The would certainly tend to prove your contention that he personified JJewish ideals.  Good question.

Edit:

Sadly, it seems our Jewish brothers and sisters fall into the same trap as our Christian brothers and sisters....confusing Jesus of Nazareth with Jesus Christ.