Is Kata a useless antiquated teaching method?

Question

Used only by lazy instructors so they can see, at a glance, who is doing it wrong, and then yell at them for their poor performance. Developed as a teaching method for instructing armies of soldiers numbering in the thousands, surely it has no relevance today. If after 5 years as some claim you will only be able to scratch the surface of the beginners katas, it must be a poor teaching method. It provides muscle memory that will try to guide you to performing the next part of the kata during a fight when your attackers are in a different area, this sounds dangerous to me.

Answer 1

I saw your answer in a previous question about kata, and that, and from the way you phrased your question makes my assumption is that you are just looking for people to agree with you, but I could be wrong, so here goes.

Contrary to ewhat your impression is, kata was not designed to teach armies of soldiers. Soldiers back then are the same as now, the training needs to be fast and simple, which learning kata correctly is not fast.

Kata are absolutly, possativly a way to pass on all of the principles of a given art, in a logical orderly manner. the reason why 5 years can barely sctratch the surface is because they are designed that way. There are a few reasons for this.

1) It gives the instructor a chance to evaluate the intent and the temperment of various students, and make sure that they are not going to abuse what they are taught.  

2) It weeds out the students without enough discipline to stick with the art even when it gets boring, or it seems like they are not learning anything new. If a student trains long enough, and proves themselves, they will be shown what the kata can truly do, and be shown many variations in teh same kata.

3) In the orient, they do not have nearly the need for instant gratification like we do here. they do not have the I want to know it all now mentality.

My instructor is not lazy, nor is he mean without reason. the fact is that proper technique is the foundation of any art, and in a life or death situation, close may not be good enough.

ANYBODY WHO REALLY TRAINED WOULD KNOW THIS, WHETHER THEY TRAINED TRADITIONAL. MMA, BJJ OR WHATEVER. DOING IT RIGHT MIGHT BE THE DIFFERENCE IN WALKING AWAY OR ENDING UP ON  A SLAB.

You slam kata, but have you ever talked to an instructor that really knows what's going on? Have you worked on analyzing a kata for years, picking up little bits here and there? What you do not realize is that a kata is not a whole fight. i may use one motion from this kata, and my opponent may react or fall different then what should be in this kata, and then because I find myself in a situation that is part of another kata, I will automaticly transition into that because my body has been there 1000's of times.

The only people who think kata are so rigid when used in application are people who really have no idea what is going on, or who have never trained kata under a good instructor. Kata were developed for passing techniques on, and establishing a firm base for any new student. Nobody questions shadow boxing for working combinations, well kata are an advanced form of shadow boxing.

granted you actually have to do the motions in kata with a resisting opponent, I do not think anybody who knows what they are doing will tell you different, but kata are an outine, it is up to you to fill in the details through training and studying them. What may appear to be or is taught to beginers a block, move, block sequence might in reality be a joint break/lock throw.

My suggestion would be until you know something well, do not assume you knwo anything, worse yet slam it. that just shows ignorence.

Edit- ANti thesis please go home. I would direct you to Judo m**o's profile, somebody who trains MMA and has been training far longer then you bye your answers, who does not beleive kata is a waste of time.

Edit for Alex- A martial arts competition proves nothing. it is jsut that, a competition a game. How many people would be eager to do MMA if the loser died? That is what self defnse is about.

Another edit for anti thesis- I said nothing about Judo I said Judomofo, one of the top contributers on here and someone with over 50% best answers.

Answer 2

So... as you have stated you have raised eyebrows. Though I'm sad to say they are not with an encouraging glance.

For anybody to say that something is absolutely useless would be to err on the side of ignorance. There are many reasons for this. Sport training may not necessarily teach someone how to handle themselves in a life or death situation, but it does instill... self confidence, courage, and belief in one self. It also allows for an entartaining way for people to remain fit and enjoy a social atmoshpere.

Fighting sports, would only add to that, though more on the side of courage, considering the individual is putting themselves in a ring for a much longer time than a normal fight would last, in front of hundreds to millions of people, with nothing but their will to survive.

Traditional Martial Arts, may not be in the public eye, but that is for the desire of it's students. The student of a traditional style trains for a union of mind body and spirit... To become one with the universe so to speak.

Every fighting system has and uses kata/(set movements or cominations). Wether you like to believe it or not. You as in the entire population. Boxing for instance, (any country) has an initial set of jab, jab, cross, uppercut, etc, Wrestling has its set of takedown practices, MMA has it's takedown, and shadow boxing set in combinations. TMA has Kata, one steps, and BUNKAI, leading to free sparring.

The issue as explained many times over is the instructor. Which goes for everything in life. Without a proper teacher the students will fail. So with all of the c**p dojo out there I can understand where people have lost their belief in the old Martial Arts. Though I must say that there is also the bad student, and it might not necessarily be the student's fault they're bad, though it too can be. (That's a whole other issue)

If one student decides that after they get their BB or whatever and they decide to go teach... because they want to feel cool, be famous, or make lots of money... Well there is the beginning of a depricating cycle for that particular system. This student, knowing what a highschooler knows about life decided to promote themselves and teach. They know nothing as far as how to instruct, why, and what. Nor do they know of the more elusive stuff. They go on to teach a dance, their students learn what they know and move on having that one that's branching out early to teach, with even less information.. and so the story goes.

Kata, yes, are a set sequence of movements. However, the applications are not set, and as such can be used quite effectively when understood. The kata has its three core levels of interpretation, and those three should be understood with every fiber of our being. Then there is the sparring area. Sparring should be understood from the slow and sequential, Kata interpretation, One Steps executed at random, Kata Bunkai, medium speed but continuous movement Form Sparring, and finally Free Sparring.

With these levels the students will perform the kata hundreds-thousands of times, and yes it will be engrained into their body's chemistry. Then with the proper understanding of the theories behind each the minds will broaden. With the proper execution of the Bunkai the student will see how things can be set up and how different people react. Nobody is perfect and nothing is absolutely undefendable.

For the record biologically speaking, nervous response from the limb to the spin and back (muscle memory/instinct/reaction) is hundreds of times faster than from the limb to the brain to the spine to the limb. There is no contest.

Answer 3

Katas = silly

Point sparring = silly

Hitting a heavy bag / thai bag = Good

Training to keep your hands up while striking = Good

(30% - 70% power) sparring = Good

Answer 4

Kata is essential, not useless.  Also, kata makes up just one part of the whole training regimen.

Dr. Jigoro Kano, the founder of Kodokan Judo, stated that the ideal training ratio for Judo is: 13% kata; 5% Shiai (tournament); and 82% randori (free practice).  Notice the founder emphasized a higher percentage of kata training over tournament?

1. Kodokan Judo has seven katas that *must* be learned before each black belt promotion.

http://www.judoinfo.com/katamenu.htm

Kodokan Judo and the International Judo Association (the IJF) also has world class Judo Kata Competitions (which can get brutal).

2. Karate also emphasizes 'kata' training before each promotion:

http://koei-kan.com/KoeiKanKarate.aspx

3. Some techniques are just too dangerous for free-practice and so must be practiced only in kata (fighting with real swords or knives; or finger breaking, eye gouging techniques, etc.).

In the Koei-Kan system of Karate, for example, kata is stressed to develop: "speed, timing, coordination, balance, focus, precise breathing, eye contact, and quick reflexes."  And I would like to add: a good hardy workout, muscle memory, a presentation of your particular style;  and a moving 'dynamic' form of meditation.

Kata will allow you to practice all your techniques alone, improve your aerobic capability while developing muscle memory, practice and perfect your techniques (like a boxer shadowboxing); and pass on the proven techniques of your style to the next generation.  Kata is also the DNA of your martial art.

So kata is not a useless and antiquated teaching method.

Answer 5

Lol,.well, you certainly have alot of opinions,..let's see, briefly.  As a student of American Kenpo, I do understand the value of Katas in my Karate. Katas train your muscles memories.  The Katas improve your defense moves and in turn, knowing the defense move improves your form in the Katas,..which in turn improves your defenses.

As far as a Kata making you defend yourself in "steps" learned from the Kata,..LOL!

Anyone who is anyone knows when you are in a position and must defend yourself, your body will react and in no particular order,..you will be "in the moment" my friend, if you are able to react at all,..which btw, if you train your muscles memories properly, they/you absolutely will react properly!  

Get it?  Got it?  Good.  Now what is this,. children getting screamed at?  That's appalling!  NO wonder all the negative waves,..I did not think that kind of dinosaur still existed, yes teachers can be like that.  Use your own discretion when choosing a school.  Personally, I don't see how a school like that could survive too long anyway, not in America.

Answer 6

Katas were ONLY designed as a record keeping device much like a tape recorder or video camera is today - instead of drawing pictures of movements, instructors put them into pre-set forms as a teaching device for the next generation.

This is why black belts are required to learn all katas - because black belts are expected to help TEACH.

In terms of COMBAT TRAINING, katas are useless and as a matter of fact, some say it wastes precious class time.

Instead of expending their full concentration on drilling the movements like full-contact arts repeatedly do over and over again for hours and hours, they spend the majority of class time learning pre-set dances.

So while the average full-contact art student perfects XXXX amount of techniques in a year, the kata students learn only X a year.

EDIT: KATANA...

Whether or not JUDO uses katas to teach is irrelevant because they are FULL CONTACT art - BTW, I study Judo as well, and in Judo, you are only expected to learn  KATAS to teach, NOT to "enhance" your combat training and in this case my favorite kata is the KIME NO KATA.

However, this is very different from other schools who use katas to "enhance" their fighters ability.

Answer 7

Hi there

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

Simply put to train more  is to see more!

Best wishes

idai

Answer 8

I agree that katas are a waste of time when it comes to actual application of fighting skills.  There are more efficient and effective ways to learn all the things katas supposedly teach.  

Some people argue that if you practice katas for years, you will slowly see new applications or secret techniques hidden in the movements.  Why not just teach and practice those moves directly!?!  

How long do the champions of mixed martial arts, kickboxing, wrestling, or even Olympic taekwondo spend on katas?  I would bet little or none.  Do any other professional athletes learn the techniques of their sport by doing long, slow motion, choreographed sequences of moves?  No!  (Dancers, on the other hand, do exactly this).

True, katas are artistic.  They are the "art" in martial arts.  They are essentially a form of dance, as well as a display of commitment and athletic ability.  But until I see a single "kata master" win any sort of martial arts competition, I will remain a skeptic as to their value in actual combat.

Answer 9

You are the clever one; read your replies to those you have already answered did any of them mention the spiritual, development of self or moving meditation part of the kata routines?  They (Kata's) do seem to lack self defence properties for this day and age (simply take to long to learn).  Agree with you about the instructor screaming in that child's (10 years old) face - that was wrong, I have told and heard plenty of horror stories to, from all walks of life so nothing new there.  Star this one so as to drop in later, it has been very entertaining, thanks, chat soon.

Answer 10

Nope katas are great for learning martial arts....however they don't work as well for basketball, baseball, swimming or real fighting.

Answer 11

So to be an expert requires no practice according to that theory. Just get out there and fight with what....... instinct?

Kata is not intended to be used to replace training one on one. Nor is it meant to show the course of an entire fight.

I guess some criticism is deserved by the many McDojos that teach only kata and poorly at that. I think you have thrown the baby out with the bath water.

Answer 12

No.

There are many differing views on the value of kata. Kata is regarded by some to be the very 'soul' of the martial arts. By others, it's regarded as a complete waste of time.

Kata is a record of the fighting systems that combined to form karate; the original 'syllabus' if you will. In Geoff Thompson's book 'The Pavement Arena' he states,

" It's not that the content of the karate syllabus is lacking, more that the syllabus is not fully utilised. A closer look at kata will divulge not only the manoeuvres we have all come to know and love, but also grappling movements, throws, hook and uppercut punches, eye gouges, grabs, knee attacks, ankle stamps, joint strikes, head-butting and even ground fighting. Have a look at your own dojo. How much of this information has been discovered, utilised and taught therein? When I had my own karate club all these techniques and more were covered. Why? Because they encompass every eventuality in all scenarios; a necessity if one is to be at all prepared for an attack."

I think that is a great paragraph that succinctly sums up the key issues relating to kata and modern karate. Many karateka ignore the lessons of kata and therefore inadvertently practise karate as a 'partial' art. Without an understanding of kata, karate is a grossly inadequate and incomplete system. As Geoff says, we need to fully utilise 'the syllabus' if karate is to be effective. And, as we've already discussed, for karate - and arts like it - kata is the syllabus!

On the other hand, modern day practitioners of the martial arts choose not to bother with kata, they often do so in the name of 'realism'. What they fail to realise is that by abandoning kata they have effectively abandoned the very syllabus of the original fighting system.

Without kata, all that remains of karate is a 'shell' of the original art and modern day sporting techniques.

Answer 13

Seeing you quoted part of an answer from an answer already given for a similar question this morning you are either

the same asker using a different identity and didn't like the answers

or

you are a brainless troll who didn't understand the answers that were given

stay within your martial depth shallow or non existent

Answer 14

NO... they are not useless.

But then again...kids hating getting socks on Christmas. Toys are much more fun.

But sooner or later we all grow up...

Answer 15

I have had this debate many times with people of all different backgrounds. I love kata for many reasons. But I do think they're a valuable tool for teaching martial arts. I agree that even after five years a student will not have a good understanding of the principles of kata. This does not mean kata is useless. I'm curious as to how long you think it should take someone to master a martial art. In my opinion five years is nothing. Until someone has at least two decades under their belt they're still a beginner. I see where you're going with your point about muscle memory, but again I disagree. I've never mistakenly started doing a kata while in combat and gotten popped for it. I view the movements contained in kata as a type of dictionary; you can pick out and use anything you need to, but each movement is individual and not reliant on either its predecessor or follower. I don't think it's accurate to say that kata were developed as a way to train armies. You should provide some sources for that statement, it isn't accurate to my knowledge. Lastly I'd guess you've had a bad experience with kata because of an overly aggressive instructor. An instructor should strict and correct you, but not yell at you. If your instructor is in the habit of humiliating students you should find a new school.

*Edit in response to the previous post: You're right, kata are not great for sport training. But neither is sport training great for actual combat. Many of the advanced kata interpretations are nerve or joint attacks and these are not taught directly as such because they are very dangerous. A responsible instructor likes to make sure a student has both the skill and appropriate attitude before teaching them techniques that can easily kill. Also, it takes some time before a student will have an adequate understaning of anatomy and organic movement to be able to decipher some advanced kata technique. Many moves that seem to be nothing at first glance are actually various ways of grappling with and tying up an opponent. Trying to teach a white belt these techniques would only confuse them and they would miss the point.

I'd also like to add a question to people who dislike kata as an instruction tool; do you know of any school that exclusively teaches kata? I don't. Kata are used in conjunction with other training techniques to provide students with a complete knowledge of their art. They are not meant to be the only way to learn a system (but with enough time and dedication to them I think they could be).

Answer 16

in my opinion, kata training on its own is good for  practicing fighting techniques by oneself, for passing techniques on to others, and for building patience and discipline . However, in order for kata to be effective and useful, one must practice the techniques with an opponent on a regular basis. This can be done by participating in competition or by participation in free-sparring practice with light or full contact (not g*y point-sparring).

Answer 17

No...

There is no such thing as 'a poor teaching method"...

Only "poor teachers" who do not know how to APPLY a method.

IF ANYTHING, the Kata may be a poor LEARNING method.

It all depends on the capacity of the student and what method works best for each individual student.

Answer 18

You have this all wrong. Kata contains many self-defense techniques that are very effective. The problem is that may instructors were not taught the these applications.  If you were to study with one of the few instructors that truly know these applications you could learn them quickly.  The situation is that many don't know the true applications. Many of those that do are not willing to teach them to a student until they have become highly skilled and proven trustworthy.  So if you are looking for instant knowledge then for you kata is a waste.

I can understand your feelings on this matter. I had trained from 1967 to 1983 before I saw the first real explanation of the kata.  Most of my friends had quit long before. I almost did several times.  Fortunately I got to a point in my training where others started to share the meaning of these kata moves. I would never stop studying the true kata applications now.

Hope this helps!

**** Stuart... Yes and no to your comment. From 1967 to 1973 I was learning effective self-defense. It was not however the more effective applications which I began to unravel from 1983 on.   Now I know that the longer I train the more I' will understand the kata and what is hidden there.  There are not just one application for any kata move. There are many interpretations. Each style and each person may have different applications.  Any that is the way it is supposed to be. As long as the applications are realistic, practical applications that use the body's nerves and meridians to create a more effective method of defense, it is OK.   That makes it more exciting because I not only have my bunkai, but can work with others that learned different applications that are also valid.

One of the methods I used in the 1980's, and 90's was to attend seminars and tournaments.  I would find people wearing high ranks and mingle with them.  It was easy to tell who knew the real bunkai from the ones that didn't. I would make conversation and then come around to the question that would tell me what I wanted to know.  I'd say , Do you take the kyusho and Tuite techniques out of your kata.  If they said, "What", "I don't know what you are talking about", or , "There is no such thing", I'd move on to the next person.  That way no one got angry or embarassed. If whoever, they said "Yes, what do you know about it"?  I knew I might have found something of value. Usually we would then move to a more quiet, private place to discuss the subject. Many people are reluctant to show what they know. In those cases I would show a common kata move and asked if they had that in their kata. Once we had a common technique, I might have to show my bunkai first to break the ice.  In that way I made some friends, learned new applications and shared my own.  This method really began to work once I reached 5th degree black belt.

A friend that was a Marine during Viet Nam, has spent much time in Okinawa. He is a top student under one of the Okinawan 10th dans. He told me that in Okinawa it is not unusual for the Okinawans to not teach the Kyusho and Tuite until the student is at least 40 years old and has attained at least 4th or 5th dan.  He went on the say that it is not a hard rule but that in general that is the way the Okinawans have done it for a long time.  In the last 10 15 years the Okinawans have become a little more open to teaching these applications.  Personally I think that they know that people like Seiyu Oyata is openly teaching it to his students as well as offering seminars on his style.  There are many fakes out there but then again there are people like Oyata that are teaching the real life-protections arts.  Oyata is a perfect example of the karate I read about as a teen. He is much like the stories of the extraordinary power the masters exhibited in the history books.  If you have further questions feel free to contact me by email at [e-mail].  All the Best!

EDIT:  Stuart ....  I read later where you wrote "So similarly if you have trained a kata and you have used two or three consecutive moves from that kata you have to fight the bodies’ instinct to use the next part of the kata. Try counting to 20 and skipping numbers 8, 13 and 17."  

I see where you are going here, and 20 years ago I might have agreed. Most people practice kata by blasting through it  as if they are fighting several imaginary attackers. That is not the case at all. Each move or position represents one possible scenario against one attack.  The old masters practiced the kata slowly. They took each move and practiced the applications it contained.  That is how I look at kata. I have no tendency to execute the next move in a kata simply because I have practice it in that order.  Someone is always talking about having a formless form. I think that this could be an example of that. Each of us studies the martial arts differently. I prefer to eat my food slowly and savor all the spices. It is not the end or destination but the travel that teaches me the most. Others tend to eat fast in order to get to the end.  In doing so they miss much.   My final comment here is simple. If you want to study an art that just goes straight to the combat and relies on ring experience that is fine. I choose to take a different approach and analyze the smallest component of each move.  It is a longer route but has been well worth it. If I could go back to 1967 and start over, I'd do it the same way again.

Answer 19

If you dont have patience then I will simply extend my leg and you can head butt my heel!...

If you cant be f@cked doing your katas then what makes you think you have the discipline to do martial arts? If you cant be f@cked sitting down closing your eyes and focusing on nothing but your breathing, then what makes you think you can do martial arts?

It's all good my friend... ALL good!

Now stop s******g around on Y!A and go practice your katas and then do some meditation. You are all over the place.

Answer 20

Kata are an important part of training in a martial art.  Just because you'll only scratch the surface of katas in 5 years does not make it a bad teaching method. If anything, that makes them more significant, as they teach the student commitment and to have the discipline to study the art properly. That they take such a long time to master shows what an in depth  part of a martial art they are.

Part of the purpose of kata is to make sure the student executes their moves accurately and has a good, strong stance - something that's more difficult to concentrate on in sparring. It might seem pointless, but being able to perform moves the way they're meant to be done, and knowing the wider variety of moves taught in katas, can be a huge advantage. And if your instructor is doing their job properly they will correct you when you're wrong.

Kata doesn't provide muscle memory that will try to guide you into the next part of it during a fight. That just makes no sense. Honestly, have you ever seen someone performing a kata during a fight? LOL

Of course, it'd be a bad idea to go to a school that taught only katas. That's a sure sign of a McDojo.

If you have the patience to learn kata, it will benefit you in the long run, and hopefully lead to a better understanding of the art.