Is it too much to ask the ignorant to stop and think?

Question

Seriously, before opening their mouths? I'm not angry, however I am slightly annoyed that people with no understanding or experience keep trying to trash kata and TMA. Those people are who have not learned a kata in its entirety and learned how to use the tools it has given.

YES there are THOUSANDS of crappy McDojo in the world teaching crappy stuff to unknowing people. THAT is what will not work in real life, and only because the people don't know how to practice what they learned or why they learned it.

There are also THOUSANDS of REAL Dojo in the world that teach the very essence and create understanding of Life, and of Violence, and Peace within violence.

So my question is, what has to be done for the ignorant to stop tossing accusations and making assumptions based on their lack of knowledge? Obviously nobody's going to meet in real life, and that's no show of honor either, promoting violence that is, so that's not the answer.

Answer 1

I heartily agree with you, and I am a Krav Maga instructor.  People are often converted from one thing to another, because whatever they were previously doing didn't work, so they become fanatical.  Do I encourage everyone to join, no, it is for the person to decide what is right for them.

I always maintain it is the artist not the art, a lousy artist makes a lousy teacher, a good artist makes a good teacher.  Unfortunately there are many who will never know the difference.  You can't stop people from making assumptions, you can't change the minds of those with closed minds.  I have spent a good deal of my life of surrounded by other cultures that want me and mine to die, but do we  listen, no.  We do what we must to survive.  I spent a good part of my life defending my land, and some of the things I had to do may seem horrible, but saved many lives.

The ignorant will always have a voice, it is up to you to ignore it, rise above it.  My first encounter with the Americans were US Navy SEALs, they were bright and opened minded, they were eager to learn, what they lacked in knowledge, they made up for in enthusiasm.  They were eager to open their minds to new paradigms.

Many people are not like this, they have a model for the way things should be and they throw out what doesn't fit their model.  The easiest thing is to just ignore ignorance and pursue your own beliefs.

Look I am a simple Krav Maga instructor, do I encourage everyone to study this art, no...as martial arts like any other arts are an individual expression.  The joy I get from Taiji and the form, movements and push hands really make me feel good, all energized and I enjoy the form.  When I go to Combat SAMBO classes, I enjoy it as well.  They are all different and yet a part of me, things I enjoy.  A form although longer than most kata is the same kind of thing, exercise in technique and transition.

There are times that I take Taiji movements and utilize them as combat disarmament, so I see commonalities, or maybe it's my way of expressing my arts.  Again, you will always be confronted by ignorance and it is not worth your time.

Look, we all hear nonsequiter stuff in everyday life, but there is never a reason to respond in kind.  Never respond to anything but a direct threat against your person, the rest, just dismiss it for what it is, random.

Answer 2

What I find ignorant is the that some people cannot stand others who have constructive criticisms about their art. The debate about static sparring vs. alive sparring is already dead and who all know who won, BUT...

the simple fact that people can't accept others have contrary opinions against their art is, should I say, hypocritical? On one hand you guys preach about "respect" "honor" and "discipline", but whenever someone disagrees with you, you flip your wig.

Just a thought.

EDIT: Aaron, calling those who disagree with you as "ignorant" is somewhat counterproductive - that's all I am referring to, nothing more, nothing less. And yes, I have read some of your answers.

EDIT # 2 for Katana: in this world of infinite possibilities, there could exists in this universe a person who is BOTH KNOWLEDGABLE AND DISAGREES WITH YOU - the difference between you and I is that I accept the debate, while you see it as an insult.

Just a thought.

Answer 3

everything has been said i just wanted to point out i love Katana17's response

particularly number 3

cause what people fail to see

is everything has a place and a time

its to the point where i study MMA and the guy instructing me actually has several Capoeira kicks involved

beautiful too

say you slip on the mat, bam staight into a roundhouse

looking like your gunna shoot for a takedown and then spinning heel kick

and yet Capoeira isnt supposed to really be a combat martial art, yet it cn be transitioned into MMA

the point is everything has a place and a time

Answer 4

Actually any and all of you are invited to the next Bullshido Throwdown in Athens or Atlanta (I'll be hosting one in October near Athens) so people could indeed meet in person to test things out in a friendly atmosphere.

Also, I've learned 2 separate TKD style Katas all the way up to 2nd degree black belt. I know all about Kata. I know what it does and what it doesn't do.

What it does is really work on balance, certain forms of static strength, certain forms of muscle control, certain forms of endurance. It also is a decent cardio workout if you do it right. The utility of Kata is that you can teach it to 1000 people at the same time, then make them do it over and over again.

What Kata is NOT good for is learning how to fight against a resisting opponent. The SAME ARTS that used a lot of Kata to train people then turned around and used a lot of full contact sparring to test those techniques and make sure people could pull them off under pressure. Unfortunately most of those arts stopped doing the full contact pressure testing part decades ago and have been churning out delusional black belts since then. Some arts, like Taekwondo have very little history of full contact sparring because the art is so young.

Also, your idea that martial arts school should be teaching spiritual development is flawed. The only reason that ever occurred in the east is because that culture had an ingrained sense of spirituality that embodied everything they did. But even then the core tenant of martial arts is learning how to fight effectively.

Kata does not help you learn to fight, though it can help you exercise.

Edit in response: No, you said it yourself, Kata will teach you the technique, learning how to fight with those techniques requires some other kind of training. Kata does not teach you to fight.

One Last Edit: The things that Kata is useful for it is still not the BEST for. That's like saying that doing nothing but pushups is the best way to get strong. It's not. It will make you stronger than doing nothing at all, but a modern weightlifting routine works much better. There are better ways NOW to do the things that Kata was designed to do. And the people who originally developed those Kata would JUMP at the chance to use modern methods in their training. Eventually you will learn that the time for Kata has passed. It is not the best way to learn the things it teaches.

Answer 5

jswentworth if all you have been exposed to is tkd kata it is no small wonder you view kata as "just excercise or sport technique"

TKD kata are all made up reworkings of JAPANESE katas bent totally out of shape to suit their kicking fetish .They have done so many "patch jobs" that tkd kata is indeed a useless waste of time as far as self defense is concerned .Unfortunately due to it's popularity which in turn is due to easy training and requirements this is what people see most of.

As for the knuckle dragging low browed mouth breathers there is no cure for stupid and proud of it.

Answer 6

I wonder if any of this was aimed at me?

Katana, if you think there is no blocking or evasion in thai boxing, you really don't know that art.

Answer 7

You also know my views on Kata as well.

I agree with all you have said.  The only thing I can think of that can be done and it is not perfect is simply education.  I agree no one will meet to have a beat down or such lol.

Answer 8

Trying to convince people that kata is valuable is like trying to telling someone that has only seen basic math that Algebra exist and is useful.  We will never convince the ignorant that there is more to things than they have seen.  I won't waste my time trying to convince the ignorant that there is more to learn. I will however still try to help those with a open mind.  There are many other there that truly would like to know more and are open enough to listen.

Answer 9

Let people learn kata all they want, if thats their bag. Those who want to learn how to fight should seek out Muay Thai or boxing, then some judo for grappling.

Answer 10

Try not to be upset at the ignorant.

It isn't that they doubt kata or traditional arts, it's that they doubt themselves. So it comes out, more often than not, as trashing the arts, opting instead to go for something that is easier and takes less time but presents less skill in the end.

While I understand and agree with you, I wouldn't hate them for it. It's just how they think. People want instant gratification, and they can get that with (random popular combat application), so they do.

As far as what has to be done in order to stop the ignorant remarks? There is no answer. People will always be ignorant as long as they either fear or doubt something. What should we do? Let them be as they are, and consider it this way -

Do you really want people like that in your dojo? Or would you rather have the people that truly desire to learn the art properly surrounding you?

I think the answer's obvious.

Edit - I think a lot of us are missing the point here. Kata aren't to teach you how to fight, they're meant to teach you focus, resolve, balance, technique, and striking force through posture and proper footing. All of these things highly impact a good strike, block, parry, grab, throw, etc. It's the same principle as a lotus or 540 kick. Though it CAN be used if timed right, it isn't primarily to add another attack to your skill set, but rather it is to further your degree of control over your mind, body, and spirit. Is that concept an unimportant one in any martial art?

Peace and respect :)

Answer 11

Unfortunately, yes it is too much to ask in many situations.  They will continue to spew out only what they have heard over and over by others who do the same.  Once and a while one will stop to think, and the others will turn on them.  They are very much like Lemmings in this way.

The only thing that we can do is to give them honest factual information and hope that they can understand it.   Just keep up the good solid advice and be content that you know something that they do not, and wish not to.  And when you meet one on the street, then you give them the proof that they so often ask for but do not want.

If they wish to keep their minds closed, then let them pass and hope that it doesnt get them killed.

For jswentworth - If you mean Athens, Tx, then I would gladly take Aaron J's place.  If still in Georga, then send me an email with the address and I will find someone to come say Hi.

Answer 12

Quick answer - NO you will never silence the ignorant.  Being loud is part of being ignorant.

TMA take a long time to become profecient at (by design) this does not appeal to the ignorant who want instant fixes.

They will always answer (Insert name of TMA here) sucks, takes too long and would never work in a street fight.  I do (insert some combo of boxing, thai boxinig, and bjj here) I am 19 years old and have 7 whole months experience in the martial arts so I should know.

The ignorant will never be quiet, however as the ignorant age perhapes the will become educated (I too was once ignorant)

I wonder how the (insert some combo of boxing, thai boxinig, and bjj here) of the 19 year old internet martial arts expert will work for him when he is 39, or in a "street fight" with some one younger stronger and fitter?

The great thing about TMA is by the time that same 19 year old is good at them, he no longer has any desire to use them in a "street fight"

Answer 13

you definetly know my view on kata, i have given several lengthy answer about the subject, so i wont go into that. I think there are probably  main reasons that people put kata down or do not think it has any value teaching fighting techniques:

1) as in the case of jswentworth, he trained forms up until 2nd degree Black belt. I suspect that he di not have an instructor who was able to mak the kata, and the motion within, real to him. my guess is that they never did any aliveness training with the actual technique in the kata, so he was never shown what a wonderful self defense teacher it can be.

2)  then you have people like Anti thesis who claims what he has is constructive citisism about someones style, yet they have never trained the style, and therfore are not really qualified to critisize it. they may have read a book or watched a video on it, and all of a sudden it makes them experts, as oppose dto somebody who has actually trained the style for years. yet let someone say something derogitory about their style, then it is no longer constructive critisism, it s an attack on their style. these are the people wth double standards.

3) the 3rd kind are like atheism- if it's not used in MMA training it is worthless, and that's because they said so. they do not realize that yes there is a differnce between squaring off with someone, and turnign to see a punch coming at their head. muay thai is a great striking style, but it is a war of attrition. there is almost no attempt to block or evade, which good kata can teach you.

4) the group taht wants instant gratification, and can't be concerned with studying a kata on their own to pick out what it contains.

I think it is very telling that all 4 typesonly hear what they want to hear. no one here is saying kata alone is going to make you a great fighter, but combined with doing the techniques they contain with aliveness training of those techniques, we have  way to practice that requires limited space, and no partner, that is just as effective as any of the drills they do.

I find it very telling that most of those that slam kata never answer actual questions about how to do a technique. they always chime in on what is the best style, what should I take, what good are kata, yet you never see them answer when somebody asks a what do I do if this hapens queestion, such as how to pass aguard. in fact the only one on here that consistantly answer grappling questions such as these is Judomofo, who is the real deal, and I think they might be very interested to see that his take on kata is not that different then yurs, mine, pugpaws, or anybody else who studies kata. here is what he has to say.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;...

Enough said I think.

Answer 14

Kata isn't useless when it has sparring and alive training with it.Kata without alive training is useless