Is it true that Jews born in Russia are not considered Russian?

Question

Is it true that Jews born in Russia are not considered Russian?

Answer 1

An answer above is a little off in the definitions of nation and ethnicity so I wish to clarify here to better help with the rest of my answer.

While the terms country, state, and nation are often used interchangeably, there is a difference.

A State (note the capital "S") is a self-governing political entity. The term State can be used interchangeably with country.

A nation, however, is a tightly-knit group of people which share a common culture. A nation-state is a nation which has the same borders as a State.

Ethnicity is another word often misused.  There are different ethnicities among the Jewish people.  There is NO one Jewish ethnicity.  Some people mistakenly associate ethnicity with race, too.  

ethnicity (n) a term which represents social groups with a shared history, sense of identity, geography and cultural roots which may occur despite racial difference

There are the Mizrahi (from the Middle East and North Africa).The Sephardi (Spanish) and the Ashkenazi, (German, Polish, Russian and other Eastern European)that are all slightly different, even within those three designations as to cultural practices and foods, but it is the faith and covenant that binds them all together as Klal Yisrael, or the community of Israel.

Jews are a nation people, Israel (tribal origin) bound by an eternal covenant of the faith (religion) of Judaism. The Jewish people are considered both a nation and a religion. Our connection is primarily one of faith (religion) through the covenant of Israel, yet membership is also conferred by birth, through matrilineal descent .One may also become a part of the nation Israel by adoption of the faith of Judaism and formal procedures of conversion.

Now, back to the question of whether one of the Ashkenazi (ethicity) Jews (nation) of the country/state of Russia is considered *Russian*.

My paternal Grandparents and three uncles and two aunts who came here from Russia  considered themselves as Russian Jews before coming to the United States, then they were American Jews.  My Father was the  youngest of four more children born to them in the U.S. as American citizens.  He considered himself a Jew of Russian ancestry.

My Grandparents were not allowed to own land but Jewish men were often drafted into the Czar's army.  They were among many Jews who lived in "The Pale of Settlement" where their lives were in shtetls in a form of indentured servitude.  They built their own home on land they did not own but had to give the landowner rent in addition to a percentage of any produce or livestock raised for food.

Despite the fact they were citizens of Russia, even though discriminated against, at that time in history, such discrimiination manifested itself in ways that would be unthinkable today, but was accepted as norm then.

On the manifest of passengers when they emigrated, instead of listing them as Russian, Polish, Lithuanian or Hungarian for instance, they were listed as Hebrew no matter where they had lived. My Grandmother and her children were listed as Hebrew even though their fellow non-Jewish passengers on the Noordham were listed as either Russian or Polish. They had special quotas, or limits, placed on how many Jews could come into the country. Other immigrants had quotas, but they were listed by country of origin and their religion or ethnic status was not listed on the ships manifest. The quotas began being strictly enforced in 1914 and the quota for Jews was dramatically reduced in 1924. This went on until after World War 2. Many Jews who later tried to flee n**i Germany for the United States were turned away because of these quotas, and many of them were killed. You can still go view the many different passenger rosters on the Internet at the Ellis Island web site and read the photographed actual ship’s manifests.

EDIT: someone else also noted below that they were listed as Hebrew on ship's manifests ( in the 1880's until after WW2) However, this was on the ENGLISH manifests, for the purposes of immigration into the United States based on U.S. QUOTAS as far as I have been able to determine.  Calling them Hebrew instead of Jewish was an early attempt to try to somehow make the covenant nation Israel, the Jews, into the status of a "race"  for the purpose of discrimination.

****IMPORTANT EDIT*****

I have just learned of horrible news.  Please go here to read:

http://malaysia.answers.yahoo.com/questi...

RJ, you are in my prayers.  Get well and come back to us in Y/A soon

EDIT:  Yes, the passenger lists showed they were Hebrew as a people or race, but since being Jewish has  NEVER been a race and a concept of Hebrew race was not a self-description and in every other instance, you see people who are NOT Jewish listed as Russian or Dutch or German or Polish, it is precisely as I said, for the purposes of discrimination because of the QUOTAS against the Jews.  Here is one such manifest..from the same ship, but different year that my family traveled on.

http://www.semmel.com/gallerys/Besser/ib...

( I googled to find this )  Note, these were not simply ship's passenger lists.  These lists did not include anyone who was not traveling for any other purpose than to immigrate.  Total passenger lists were not of this nature.

Across the top of many of these manifests ( in earlier years ) was the purpose of that particular type of manifest:

In Large Bold Letters "LIST OF ALIEN PASSENGERS FOR THE U.S. IMMIGRATION OFFICER AT PORT OF ARRIVAL"

"Required by the Regulations of the Secretary of the Treasury of the United States, under Act of Congress approved March 3, 1903, to be delivered to the U.S. Immigration Officer by the Commanding Officer of any vessel having any such passengers on board  upon on arrival at a port in the United States"

Answer 2

well said misanthropist

Answer 3

No...russian jews,not a russians by nationality.

Answer 4

I'm not sure about today, but in the early 20th century jewish immigrants from Russia were listed as "Hebrew" on ship manifests.

Answer 5

Hi RJ.

I mean Dad

(Don't forget you're my Y/A virtual father)

:)

Well , although I myself am not Jewish , but I'm Russian , so maybe I can help.

Firstly , please ignore some of the ignorant and antisemitic  answers you've got here. Citizenship and nationality are different things. I can go to the US and apply for American citizenship , but I will still remain Russian.

From what I understand , although Russian Jews are Russians by law , many people don't consider Russian Jews to be really Russian.

I've visited Russian Jewish websites , and I can say that Russian Jews don't consider themselves to be  Russians . The just consider themselves to be Jews - they treat that as their nationality.

I've read things like 'My mother is a Jew but my father is a Russian'. Seriously. I was a bit surprised myself , that Russian Jews don't consider themselves to be of Russian nationality , but there it is. It's the same with secular Jews too.

Just as an extra fact , most Jews living in Russia are secular , and most Russian Jews are now living in Israel , not in Russia. (In USSR times , Russian Jews did get discriminated a lot , and would actually be hard for some to even get a job during those times)

Hope that helped :) !

EDIT: Consider Vladimir C's answer - (By his name I'm assuming he's Russian).The first half  of his answer is correct. Everybody born in Russia gets Russian citizenship. Citizenship and nationality are separate matters , but of course the Russian Jews are of Russian nationality by Law.

The second half of his answer demonstrates what an anti-Semite he is , full of prejudice and stereotypes. Although there are many financially successful Jews in Russia , it's absurd to make such a generalising claim! Jews are just like everybody else - they work just as hard as anybody else to earn their living in Russia!

Vladimir and some others demonstrate to us that there is certainly some anti-Semitism in Russia - but I can tell you that it isn't normally anything major , and thanksfully there haven't been any major incidents in years.

LOL I keep discovering more and more Jews here on Y!A with Russian ancestry.

Edit:

http://malaysia.answers.yahoo.com/questi...

Yep, get well soon RJ! All of us on YA are thinking of you and wishing you all the best! What you did is truly honorable! Hope you get better.

xx

Answer 6

I think I know what you mean by being "considered Russians". Yes they are Russian *by nationality*, BUT... you know there's always a BUT wherever Jews are concerned. Were Jews born in Germany considered genuine Germans? Or in France? Remember Dreyfus? He was a colonel in the French army, one would think you can't get more French than that.

I don't like wikipedia links, but this might give you some introductory information

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_...

Answer 7

Well my friend is a russian jew and she moved here (australia) because she said they are mistreated there, so maybe.

Answer 8

Nonsense! Everybody who was born in Russia and whose parents are Russian citizens (or one of them) can get Russian citizenship. It's an international law principle.

))) But of course I can't consider Jews as Russians (if you mean nationality).

Jews have comfortable and rich life in Russia. Don't worry about them.

Answer 9

You're confusing nationality and ethnicity. Nationality is determined by your citizenship, while ethnicity depends on your family's background. Jews born in Russia are Russian citizens, but they are not ethnically Russian.

Answer 10

In general if I'm going be specific to your question, then no, Jews born in Russia are not Russian. They can be Russian citizens, but they are not Russian...

So, if a Jew is born in Antarctica does than make him Antarctican?

Answer 11

Just because your born somewhere doesn't mean your from that country it depends where you come from.

Answer 12

Rubbish!

Answer 13

The meaning of "Nationality" in Russia is very peculiar for linguistic and historical reasons.

In the Russian language, all the ethnic groups or nationalities are nouns, but the word "Russian" is an adjective. This is because the first Russians were not considered a nationality, but simply a clan that ruled the country of RUS, which later grew into the Russian Empire. As the empire grew, the Russians eventually acquired their own ethnic or national identity, but still allowed the other 180 nationalities within the empire to retain theirs.

Of course, this bit of history only scratches the surface, but should give you an idea why the concept of nationality in Russia differs from other nation-states.

Under the current legal system in Russia, most state ID's and citizenship documents no longer specify ethnicity, except the birth certificate (where it's left up to the parents' choice).

Answer 14

English ship manifests had two separate columns,

"Nationality (country of which citizen or subject)" and

"Race or People."

Jews from Russia were entered in these two columns as "Russian" and "Hebrew," respectively.  So both affiliations were recorded.