JW's who are the true 144,000?

Question

According to Matthew 19:28 who are the twelve tribes the diciples will Judge?

Here is a hint. In Revelation 6, we learn the sixth seal is opened. So why is it that Revelation 7 says that the 12 tribes mentioned are only sealed after the sixth seal is opened? How could Paul and the others be part of that group since they like the other Christians were already sealed?

For your reference, please note Rev 7:1-4 from the NWT

1 After this I saw four angels standing upon the four corners of the earth, holding tight the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow upon the earth or upon the sea or upon any tree.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrising, having a seal of [the] living God; and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea,

3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.”

4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:

Answer 1

Luke 18:10 states “Two men went up into the temple to pray, the one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector”

In this illustration, is the number Two literal or figurative, is the Pharisee only applied to Jews? And is the praying figurative or literal?

In just one sentence, you can see that some words are meant to be literal, some are meant to figurative.

Rev 6:10-11 states “. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood upon those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled also of their fellow SLAVES and their brothers who were about to be killed as they also had been.”

These SLAVES of God, where later sealed in their foreheads in Rev 7:3 “3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the SLAVES of our God in their foreheads.””

Rev 7:4 states that these slaves of God number 144,000.

If the prophecy in Rev 6:10 happened in the earlier centuries, then how come the “judgment” of their blood upon those who dwell on the earth has not arrived yet? The judgment is still in the future.

That 144,000 is being CONTRASTED to a huge number, that no man was able to number, means that 144,000 is a small number and literal. Rev 7:9

The 144,000 is composed of spiritual Jews

They have to be spiritual Israelites if they are to stand with the Lamb Jesus Christ on the heavenly Mount Zion. (Revelation 14:1-3; Hebrews 12:22

13 In order for 144,000 persons “out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation” to be rated as “Israelites” they would have to be such in a figurative sense, that is, be inwardly Israelites. As Romans 2:29 reminds us: “He is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit.”

The natural Jews as well as the non-Jews who become the dedicated, baptized disciples of Christ and whom God PICKS OUT to share with Christ in world rule God begets with his spirit. All such become spiritual Israelites.

2 Cor 5:10 talks about the people who will be judged.

10 For we must all be made manifest before the judgment seat of the Christ, that each one may get his award for the things done through the body, according to the things he has practiced, whether it is good or vile.

The 144.000 will be kings with Jesus and part of the FIRST resurrection and are given favor in the judgment itself.

Rev 5:10 states “ and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

Dan 7:22 states “22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment itself was given in favor of the holy ones of the Supreme One, and the definite time arrived that the holy ones took possession of the kingdom itself.”

Rev 20:5 states “This is the first resurrection. 6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.”

144,000 ‘not defiled with women.’ In Revelation 14:1-4, the 144,000 described as standing with the Lamb on Mount Zion are said to have been “bought from the earth. These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins.” These are shown as having a more intimate relationship with the Lamb than any others do, being the only ones to master the “new song.” (Re 14:1-4) This would indicate that they make up the “bride” of the Lamb. (Re 21:9) They are spiritual persons, as revealed by the fact that they stand on the heavenly Mount Zion with the Lamb. Therefore their ‘not defiling themselves with women’ and their being “virgins” would not mean that none of these 144,000 persons had ever been married, for the Scriptures do not forbid persons on earth who are to be joint heirs with Christ to marry. (1Ti 3:2; 4:1, 3) Neither would it imply that all the 144,000 were men, for “there is neither male nor female” as far as the spiritual relationship of Christ’s joint heirs is concerned. (Ga 3:28) The “women” therefore must be symbolic women, doubtless religious organizations such as Babylon the Great and her ‘daughters,’ false religious organizations, the joining of and participation in which would prevent one from being spotless. (Re 17:5) This symbolic description harmonizes with the requirement in the Law that the high priest of Israel take only a virgin for his wife, for Jesus Christ is Jehovah’s great High Priest.—Le 21:10, 14; 2Co 11:2; Heb 7:26.

The authority to seal by the angels come from God, so the sealing can be said as coming from God himself. There are initial sealings and final sealings as well.

Answer 2

12 tribes of Israel. All God's people

Answer 3

Jehovah's Witnesses understand the Scriptures to teach that exactly 144,000 humans will join Christ Jesus as kings and priests to administer God's Kingdom (which will soon replace all earthly governments).

...(Daniel 2:44) God of heaven will set up a kingdom... It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite

...(Revelation 14:1) Lamb [Jesus] standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand

...(Revelation 20:6) they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him

The men and women who make up the 144,000 are selected by God from among two thousand years of Christians. Jesus himself noted that those who are 'given' the administration of the Kingdom government would be a relatively "little flock", while all of Christianity constituted Christ's "other sheep".

...(Luke 12:32) Have no fear, LITTLE FLOCK [with a heavenly hope], because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom [to administer alongside the Christ] [caps added]

...(John 10:16) And I [Jesus] have OTHER SHEEP, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring [to be subjects of the kingdom government][caps added]

Those kingly, priestly administrators in God's government by Christ will assist in the rulership of heaven and earth (where most Christians who survive Armageddon will remain).

...(Revelation 7:9-11,13,14) Look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes... These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation [compare Matt 24:3,21]

Almighty Jehovah God selects those few who have the heavenly calling. Each person "feels" his own hope by means of holy spirit and each person's hope remains unquestioned by his fellow Christians. Still the vast majority (literally more than 99.9%) of Jehovah's Witnesses expect an EARTHLY hope, the same hope given to Adam and Eve.

...(Genesis 1:28) God blessed them and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many and fill THE EARTH and subdue it [caps added]

...(Genesis 2:17) You must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die [so never eating from that tree meant never dying]

It follows that those resurrected after Armageddon will be resurrected to earth. It seems that the vast majority of dead humans will be resurrected, including the previously unrighteous.

.. ..(John 11:23,24) Jesus said to her: “Your brother will rise.” Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.”

.. ..(Acts 24:15) There is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.

Answer 4

Great question. Keep it up.  

Answer 5

"And saviors will certainly come into Mount Zion, in order to judge the mountainous region of Esau; and the kingship must become Jehovah's."

The plurality of saviors and judges associated with Jehovah's asserting his own kingship can be none other than the 144,000 true sons of God, as they are depicted in Revelation, standing upon the pinnacle of heavenly Mount Zion to begin the rule of Christ's kingdom over the world.

Their judging Edom relates to Christ and his 144,000 avenging themselves upon Babylon the Great for having spilled the blood of God's servants down through the centuries and up to the very moment when the last one of the saints is martyred.

Revelation 6:11 indicates that God's judgment of the present system is withheld until the full number of the brothers of Christ, who are about to be killed, have been killed. Presumably, that is when Babylon the Great's sin finally amasses clear up to the heavens and God calls her many acts of injustice to mind.

Question: According to Matthew 19:28 who are the twelve tribes the diciples will Judge?

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God."

Iseral of God is made up of this new creature. If it is new, then it something that did exist prior. Such as human Jews. It must then be born again spiritual Jews.

Questions: why is it that Revelation 7 says that the 12 tribes mentioned are only sealed after the sixth seal is opened? How could Paul and the others be part of that group since they like the other Christians were already sealed?

The opening of the 6th seal initiates earth-shaking events associated with what Christ called a great tribulation. However, the tribulation does not lead immediately into Armageddon. Instead, the 7th chapter of Revelation indicates that the angels intercede to hold back the fours winds of God’s destructive judgment until all of the remaining 144,000 have been sealed. Jesus directly spoke of the same development when he said:

“For then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.”

So, the holding back of the four winds parallels the cutting short of the tribulation on account of the chosen ones of the 144,000. Evidently, the tribulation is suspended so that the final sealing may be accomplished. That being the case, the 14th chapter of Revelation establishes the ordering of events after that final sealing. That is because the vision of 144,000 standing upon Mount Zion can only signify that Christ’s remnant has finally been sealed at that point, so that the kingdom is complete. Their standing upon Mount Zion with the Lamb of God parallels the wheat being gathered into the heavenly storehouse.

Contrary to the assumptions of some, God’s purpose has not reached that stage yet.

At any rate, the vision of Revelation proceeds to reveal that after the last 144,000 brothers of Christ have been gathered into the storehouse, then the hour of judgment for the sheep and goats (or nations) arrives.

Answer 6

Achtung has answered your question - he has told you who JW's think are the true 144,000. Technically, he should get best answer, even though you do not agree with the JW position!

Now, if you had invited other people to comment on the JW position, then I would have said it is strange that they take the entire book of Revelation to be symbolic (The Beast, The Harlot, The Lake of Sulphur, etc., etc.) yet when the number 144,000 crops up they say it is literal.

I would also have gone on to say that I believe the 144,000 represent those Jews who become Christians and the the Great Crowd (also standing before the throne in heaven) represent those Gentiles who become Christians.

But you didn't ask that, so my point of view (as a former JW) is not a valid answer to your question. Pity.

Answer 7

The cited passages from The Revelation will now be studied. The seventh and fourteenth chapters of this book are the only places in the Bible where the number "144,000" is actually mentioned.

In 7:1-4, the 144,000 are specifically said to be Israelites. 12,000 Israelites from each of the 12 tribes of Israel are sealed by God to be His servants.

Now, some Christians do believe "Israel" in this passage should not be taken literally. Instead, they think it is to be taken metaphorically as referring to Christians (i.e. "spiritual Israel"). However, in this view, "144,000" is also taken figuratively. It indicates a complete but nonspecific number. 144,000 is the product of 12,000 times 12 and 12 is believed to be symbolic of completeness.

However, the passage must be taken wholly literally or wholly figuratively. It is faulty interpretation to take 144,000 literally yet to spiritualize Israel into "anointed Christians" as the WT does. If 144,000 is taken literally then so must Israel. If the number is taken spiritually, then so should Israel.

As for the "great crowd" - Revelation 19:1 specifically declares that they are in heaven! So how can this phrase refer to those who will live forever on earth?

Finally, all the redeemed will "reign" in the sense of having our dominion over nature restored that was lost at the Fall (Gen 1:26f; 3:17-19; Rev 5:9f). We are all "priests" since we have direct access to God (1Pet 2:9f; Heb 4:14-16).

One People of God

In conclusion, nowhere in any of the passages evaluated has there been found any indication that they should be linked in the way the WT strings them together.

Further, the New Testament teaches there is only ONE people of God. The idea of two distinct classes of Christians with two different destinies is simply not Biblical (see Mark 9:38-40; Rom 1:7; 12:4-8; Gal 3:7-9,26-29).

Moreover, only one thing is needed to become a part of this ONE people of God - faith in Jesus Christ (John 6:28f). All genuine believers can look forward to spending eternity in loving fellowship with the Father and the Son (Rev 21:1-4; 22:1-5).

If you ask a Jehovah’s Witness if he is going to heaven you’ll almost always get an answer such as, “No. That’s for the Anointed Class only”. The Watchtower teaches that only 144,000 individuals will live for eternity in heaven. This group is made up of “Christians” from the time of Christ’s resurrection until the year 1935 A.D. The rest of the approximately 6 million Witnesses belong to a class known as the Other Sheep, or Great Crowd. This Great Crowd, according to Watchtower doctrine, will live forever on a paradise earth. Consider the following:.

"....the heavenly hope was held out, highlighted and stressed until about the year 1935. Then as 'light flashed up' to reveal clearly the identity of the 'great crowd' of Revelation 7:9, the emphasis began to be placed on the earthly hope." The Watchtower, February 1, 1982, p.28

What does the bible have to say about the location of this Great Crowd? Will it, in fact, reside forever on the earth like the Jehovah's Witnesses teach? Let's turn to the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures for the answer.

Revelation 7:9-10 “After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. And they kept on crying with a loud voice, saying: ‘Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb’.” So, according to this verse, the great crowd is standing before the throne where God Almighty Himself is seated. However, instead of interpreting this passage  literally, the Watchtower appeals to the Greek text and teaches that standing before the throne really means that the great crowd is figuratively “in sight of” the throne from the earth. Can this interpretation be justified? Let’s look at the next verse:

Revelation 7:11 “And all the angels were standing around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell upon their faces before the throne and worshipped God.” Here we see in the very same context that the angels are also standing “before the throne” or, if you wish, “in sight of” the throne. Would it be prudent to conclude that the angels are not really in the presence of God in heaven, but at some earthly location with the great crowd? Hardly.

Now, where are the 144,000 going to reside? That’s right. In heaven. We do agree with the Jehovah’s Witnesses on this point. Take a look at what they are doing up there:

Revelation 14:3 “And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders....” Do you see the same phrase, “before the throne”? Obviously, this group is literally in heaven. To say that the angels and the 144,000 are actually standing before God, but the Great Crowd is not, goes against an

Answer 8

Great question, but the JWs do not have an accurate answer.  They do not have "the Truth" as they claim.

I see a lot of truth in this simple quote:

"Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it."

Answer 9

I'm not a JW.  JW is a cult.

The 144,000 are clearly Jewish evangelists, NOT the "number of the saved" as the JW cult teaches.  

The number of the saved are shortly after those verses, identified as a number so big, that nobody can number them.