Let's imagine a flight non-stop from Madrid to JFK, on a 747. If, on mid-way, they would have been this...

Question

.... hole (like the Qantas-747-one), the pilot would have to descend to like 10,000 ft. Because 747=no ETOPS regulations, he would be like in the middle of the Atlantic, on 10,000 ft. If he has luck, there is an airport in 2 hrs flight time, if the flight route is planned otherwise, the nearest airport would just be on the American continent (and as I said, no ETOPS means that there must not be planned an alternate airport which can be reached in 2-3 hrs flight time ). So, would the plane reach its destination if the nearest airport is on the American continent, when it has to fly for about 4 hrs at FL100, meaning therefore air which has a greater density, and therefore more fuel has to be burned.

Or, could it be that, in this very special case (and maybe headwinds of like 100 knots) the plane would not reach an airport with its whole fuel?

Answer 1

If you are in an emergency situation, you can deviate from the regs as much as you care to. There is nothing that says the distressed a/c MUST be at 10,000 , that is a reg for intentionally carrying passengers without supplemental Oxygen.  You are going to have your entire flight plan in front of you LONG before you even copy a clearance.. and you are going to have your point of no return and alternate airfields located, identified, freqs written on the Atlantic chart etc (and they are printed on there if you know where to look) so that this is a no brainer. If anything happens you are cross referencing your position about every 12-17 minutes. The LONGEST break, I had anytime I went across the Atlantic, was about around 30/30 I had about 23 minutes (assuming I didn't have to do the stupid Met reports)  where I could eat dinner before I had to go Shanwick Shanwick Copy Gander....

If I had a vented cabin... I would have no problem flying at 16,000 feet if I need to do so because of fuel... and if it meant ditching or going higher, I would go higher.. anything to get the plane back to dry land.   If you had those headwinds at those alititudes.. you would not be flying there anyway.. because dispatch would have found you a re-route.  The question builds in factors which would simply not apply. You have to remember that the airlines have been doing this for a few decades...  it's not a scenario that they have not already experienced.. or anticipated.

Answer 2

For the record

Madrid and NYC are basically on the same latitude

Madrid : 40 -26N

JFK : 40:38 N

Bangor -KBGR - would also be an option

Answer 3

hmm. Not sure about ETOPS or not. Madrid to KJFK is 3,116nm give or take 100 for flightplan.

Anyways, I'm pretty sure that the 747 would make it seeing as the 747's max range is more or less 7,000 nm depending on version unless extremely unlucky conditions arise such as a 100 knot headwind ( nearly impossible at 10,000 feet except in severe weather conditions aka storm, hurricane etc.)

I am aware that The 747 might not be loaded with full tanks, but if there actually were no ETOPS, then I'm pretty sure 747s on that route and similar ones would have quite some more extra fuel.

Anyways, coming back to the problem. With the 747, you have some options. You can shut off an engine, maybe even two as you get lighter, if it still can't make it, the pilot would probably get as close to the US mainland as possible and ditch in the water. He might even try for Gander in Newfoundland, Canada which is about 1000 nm closer to Madrid than KJFK and about 900 nm closer to the mid-way point of the route. (checked on google earth)

By the way, I know the shortest path as shown in google earth is not the actual flightplan, but since airlines want to keep cost down and keep trip duration down, we can assume google earth is O.K. accurate. Remembering this, I notice the path comes within 700 nm of the Azores. The mid atlantic islands. If I remember correctly, an Air Transat A330 ran out of fuel on a flight from Pierre Elliot Trudeau Intl (CYUL) to Paris or London and glided all the way there for an 0 fuel landing. It would be a good alternative only if the pilots calculated fuel burn and found out that they couldn't make it.

But still,

If there were a cabin breach, the pilots would try to get to the closest airport that can handle a 747. With all the alternatives possible, I seriously doubt they would opt for the US coast unless they were sure to be able to get there and therefore, I am pretty sure the 747 would make it somewhere safely, without running out of fuel.

Answer 4

B747 is not under ETOPS requirement due to the fact that it has 4 engines. ETOPS stands for Engine Turn OR Passengers Swim! (extended range twin engine ops)

Answer 5

Remember that you have an on-board navigation system that can hit a particular raindrop with a bow and arrow in a thunderstorm at midnight, and will advise you what is the nearest airport on command.  In most cases, company policy will be that, barring other considerations, the nearest airport is the procedure.

So if it happens in the first (approximately) 1,500 miles, the answer is The Azores.  For the next 1,200 or so, the answer will be Newfoundland Island.  Then Nova Scotia, then Boston, and then JFK.  You are closer to land most of the way than you would first think.

The first impulse is to say, "Oh, that's a northwesterly route."  But it's not.  Spain is 'way north of New York.  It will surprise you.

Assuming it is the captain's judgment that the airplane has a good chance of holding together, the situation is not as deathly dire as it first sounds.  From there on out, it's just Aviate, Navigate, and Communicate.

Try this, if you have a world globe handy.  Get a transparent plastic report cover or some similar piece of clear plastic.  Cut a strip about an inch wide, and mark a scale of miles along one edge with a felt tip pen.  You can copy this off the scale of miles around the equator of the globe.

Now you can use this ruler to figure out the heading and difference from any point to any other.  It is a lot of fun, and people will often be surprised to learn the true bearings and distances between various points.