Myth or reality?

Question

This question is for Higher level Karate-ka's. There is a difference in the way that Okinawin karate and Japanese karate punch, or I should say the position they finish the technique in. My question is Why is this? I know the answer I have been told but I am wanting to see what some of the people on here truly get it have to say.

I have been told by more then one source that the main reason is that when Funikoshi introduced karate to the mainland the Okinawin version was too dangerous to teach to children, so it was modified to be less effective. I also have been told that the Okinawins did not want to teach the deadlier version to a country that had invaded and conqured them.

Just looking for other opinions.

Answer 1

Hi there

Yep you are right i have also seen this too. Traditional Japanese karate such as shoto kan and wado both punch this way with fully locked out elbows stacking up the joints behind each other with full hip rotation. Its great for Kihon waza just not so grand when it makes contact with solids.

I remember seeing Okinawan Te on a documentary TV show and thinking my god their punches are very different and much shorter and more importantly not locked. In fact if i was to be honest most of the technique they performed were vastly different in places and appeared to be more devastating. I don't think Funikoshi or Otsuka had the intention of watering down the styles deliberately. But I am a big believer that if you want to learn things correctly you must go back to the source material. The feeling behind the techniques is more important than their execution and sadly this has been lost in modern budo.

Best wishes

idai

Answer 2

Part myth part truth and a lot of people making things up because they didn't really know they answer.

Any concerns about children had long been established by ITOSU  before FUNAKOSHI  came on the scene.

When you talk of deadlier in what sense do you mean it ?How it's made or thrown .Many things were altered added deleted expanded in the transistion from OKINAWA to JAPAN the HEIAN//PINAN kata are a prime example of this as are some stances for instance the difference between the okinawan kokutsu dachi and the japanese version.The proof that okinawan karate has become totally japanized and influenced can be seen in the virtual dissapearance of the okinawan kokutsu.

Any differences not taught are specifics for certain situations or intent.This means shaping the weapon to best destroy the target ."Turning the fist this much fits this vital cavity better than turning it that much" type of instruction which is useless once you put  gloves on and steer the art in purely a sport/fighting direction which in turn such info becomes not hidden or secret but lost.

This is far more than making it "safe" for kids involved here as a child having just had his lip split or nose broken by a punch from another kid is not to concerned about how the fist was held formed or ended up when it hit him.

This "safe for kids" excuse has always been a cover up for the truth behind the purely "surface" art transmitted to westerners and true self defense.

When it was 1st discussed about teaching westerners on a large scale many in okinawa and japan were against it saying it was to violent to teach an already violent society.We were seen by them as lazy stupid unable to discipline our own children and violent and for many that view still remains.If you read some of the answers on this forum you may begin to think where some people are concerned they may be right.

The limitations of sport and the limited knowledge and insight required by sport was an ideal answer.

Changed altered hidden forgotten whatever the truth is still there.

Answer 3

I agree with what "Sensei" said.

Low chamber makes grab and pull more effective.  The Okinawans grabbed cross body, and punched the ribs under the elbow.  Also, low chamber punches gave up some speed and power versus high chamber, but got back more usable connection and power at all ranges.  For instance, we're at nose biting distance, the high chambered punch would be jammed.  But the low chambered fist would be able to do an "inch punch" with full shoulder power and body weight behind it, into the solar plexus or sacral plexus, or an uppercut to the jaw.  

Kyokushinkai is a combination of Goju and Shotokan.  Mr. Oyama's animosity towards Funakoshi was because Mr. F had expelled Mr. O, who liked to frequent and brawl at red-light districts and start trouble at other dojo's.  Mr. Yamaguchi was not deterred by Mr. O's lack of restraint and wanted powerful fighters and accepted O.  Before his death, Oyama sensei had apologized for his "youthful exuberance" and bad attitude, but not his comments about Shotokan being only for children.  By the way, his name Oyama, means "Great Mountain", no doubt for a Korean, his slap at his Shotokan contemporaries, Nishiyama and Nakayama, "Western Mountain" and "Central Mountain" respectively.



Goju's power is less about stepping and lunging, and hip shifts (Shotokan), and is more about tricep, bicep, chest and stomach power used up close.  And so power is developped differently.

The punch definitely was watered down, we wouldn't want school kids breaking ribs and such, would we?

I know Itosu "invented" Pinan, but, with only some modifications of fists to certain tiger claw hands, and returning the 5 parts into the original sequence, it would be a pretty fair imitation of Hung Gar's "Letter 'H' [Shaped] Tiger-Subduing Fist."

Okinawans used high stances for reasons I don't understand.  But it was Giko Funakoshi, who was too tall who brought in the long stances.  When he did partner work, he would take long, deep stances so that he could be level with the other men.  It became fashionable.  Then Nakayama with his study of physics in karate justified it in terms of lower center of gravity and greater stability and mobility (to an extent).

Aaron, you're right, we used to have to work so hard to acquire the "secrets" now we can't give them away!  How life as changed for the worse.

There are pluses and minuses for extending the elbow.

Katana, how about sharing?

Answer 4

Never heard that. I've been studying for 14 years though, so I'll ask my instructor.

Answer 5

I believe that it was intentional - due to the animosity towards the Japanese.

I have been told of an Okinawan Master that will not accept Japanese students. He supposedly inherited a small castle that had been handed down from his family and the Japanese government confiscated it.

I don't know how true this is but it reflects the treatment of the Okinawans and why it is likely, to me, that they taught an abbreviated version of their art to the Japanese.

Let us remember that history shows that the Japanese FORCED the Okinawans to teach them.

The 3/4 punch is a very important and totally underused/underestimated weapon. I was told by my Teacher that a Chiropractor who is an Okinawan arts practitioner demonstrated this by taking X-Rays of arms in the 3/4 position and full twist.

The X-Rays showed that in the full twist, the two bones in the forearm were crossed, where the 3/4 position showed the bones to be aligned.

You can even feel the difference in your own arms by just feeling for the bones using both positions.

Another thing that Okinawans don't do is fully extend the arm. They leave the elbow bent and it always points down.

You see this in the old pictures of the masters in posture.

As far as stances go, there is definitely major change that makes the Japanese versions vulnerable to attack.

If you look at the Okinawan stances, or you study Okinawan arts, you are told to twist your thighs inward aka "closing your kua". Even in kata such as Naihanchin, the postures are more upright but still rooted through closing your kua.

Another thing eliminated is the infamous "toe kick". For those of you who practice Naihanchin/Tekki - those so-called "sweeps" are actually a toe-kick executed after the sweep or just a toe kick. This technique is applied to the inner thighs.

The Okinawans practice their art in a relaxed manner. Only during Sanchin practice, is there any tension in the body.

There is alot of "speculation" and also "political correctness" as to what is true or not. Practitioners of Japanese karate get offended by these claims and rightly so.

The Okinawan kata contain grappling, vital point striking techniques, throws, chokes and much more.

There are Japanese karateka in the US today that are putting all the BS aside and re-incorporating these things back into their art. I applaud them. Many TKD practitioners also.

Reflecting what another poster said, not all Okinawan schools today are practicing the "old ways" either.

I feel this has led to the to the deterioration of Okinawan karate and martial arts in general.

Wushu, as it is called today, is also a deterioration of Chinese martial arts.

We must strive to complete our training, young Jedi!

Answer 6

As far as I know in Funakoshi's karate everyone punches from the very waist, pretty low down, which is a horrible way to practice imo.  I doubt that if Funakoshi knew that its better to punch from higher up he wouldn't teach it to his students but then again Funakoshi was a very peacefull man and concentrated more on kata than sparing to develop his karate, Oyama Sosai once said that Funakoshi's karate is good for only childeren and in kyokushin karate they punch from higher up on the chest

dont know about the way they finish...   but punching from the waist is horrible

Answer 7

Katana, that's the same thing I've heard. I heard it was also because the Japanese taught in their schools, and that is also what the Pinan kata were created for. Yes, they also came from Ankoh Itosu, but they are meant for children and it fits the story, at least from my perspective. You've just got to love the word of mouth. It's like that old telephone game.

I train in an Okinawan style called Shuri-Te (Shurite Karate Jitsu) as we are so naming it. The parent style of our system is Shuri Ryu and though it has a great lineage it is losing its original essence as we speak. Going to the yearly symposiums I see a sad trend of the sissification of it and the omittance of technique for purely sport sake.

Our system is heavily influenced by Hsing Yi and Southern White Crane. It came from the Shuri, Tomari, and Naha provinces of Okinawa. It came to fruition after the meeting of the minds. So even though it's fairly new in the overall scheme of things it has old roots. That is what makes it sad to see what people are doing to it.

Though I must say, the lack of emotion is growing beyond that of dispair or pity. True martial arts are not meant for everybody. Its too much work and doesn't contain the party, ego filled liefstyle of the "fighting" styles/sports of today. It reminds me of the days when karate was a secret, and only a few could recieve those precious pearls of wisdom. Though today we aren't only keeping the secrets from people, they are just too lazy to do the work and find out.

I am glad too that the "special" side of the martial world is not what is getting taught in these mcdojo, mma gyms, etc. The general population doesn't have the maturity for it. As previously stated all we have to do to see that fact is look at most of the questions and answers posted on this forum alone.

edit- Oh and we don't punch from the belt level even in kata, and we use the traditional Okinawan Kokutsu Dachi.

Answer 8

Katana, I believe that you are partly correct.  As I understand it the punch was changed from the 3/4 punch to the full twist version before Funakoshi introduced karate in Japan.  It was changed so that it could be introduced into the school system in Okinawa.  After generations of being taught that way many students of karate have forgotten that the punch was not a full twist as is most often seen today.

The punch is not the only thing that is different between Okinawan karate and Japanese karate.  As old pictures will show the Okinawan karate styles generally use shorter stances.  Although I can find no proof, I believe that the Okinawans taught the Japanese to use deeper longer stances intentionally.  I believe this because it is easier to defeat an opponent that uses deeper stances.  Just my opinion.   Hope this helps!