Old School...very confusing, your opinions?

Question

I read an answer on where the person was asking for help with a rearing horse...and someone answered...

and I quote: "I was trained in the "old school" of breaking horses."

But when I read their answer...it was full of force and not even giving the horse the chance to do it right the first time...I have never seen a "old school" cowboy teach a horse this way. Has anyone else?

also...who in their right mind would tie a horse to a snubbing post and get on? How can some of these people suggest this type of training to others? I wonder how much trust those horses that have been trained in this manner, how much do they trust humans now?

Answer 1

I have heard of this in different forms.  It's a bastardization of the basically sound principal of using a heavy item that is too big for the horse to move to deal with behavior issues.

When my neighbor has a training horse in that will not be line driven, rears, pitches a fit, etc. he hooks them up in harness between his two drafts.  Talk about the irresistable force meeting the unmoveable object.  He is very careful not to get any of them hurt, but when 18 H 2000lb hulks hooked to your right and left say, "We're walking now" the 1200 lb stubborn *** in the middle usually says "Oh, OK."

I don't get, never have, never will, this whole idea of encouraging behavior you want to stop just so you can train them not to do it.  I'm not talking about sacking a horse out. That's different.  In sacking out a horse, you're just introducing items that may spook the horse in a setting where you can control the reaction, to desensitize him.

Deliberately spooking a horse to make them rear, buck, or balk is just poor horsemanship.   I mean, what's the end message? Trainer is trying to teach the horse to obey his commands.  Trainer causes horse do things that he shouldn't be doing, just to provide a negative stimulus as a result of the behavior.

Just wondering, when the horse begins to associate the trainer with being spooked, how do you untrain that?

This method does nothing to teach the rearing horse to respond to cues from the saddle.  Sounds like a careless shortcut to me.

Answer 2

i was raised around all the old waddies and they were trained by the old waddies and i cant remember them ever saying"use force to train a horse"in fact it was the opposite.training horses requires you as a human to understand what the horse is telling you and finding a way to communicate in a manor that the horse will accept and be calm.i learned the three Cs calm,communicate,companionship.you want the horse to respect your decisions in a trusting manor in order to work with the horse and not against the horse. i don't know where some of these people come up with some of the dangerous and insane answers they come up with but it is not the right way to gain the confidence of a horse.

edit: ps LUSI my truck was gelded but it still marks its territory lol

Answer 3

IDK. I would train a horse in water. That way they can't move anywhere or that much. Too me that would be the best training. Also, I think that indians used to train their horses back then. I'm not that sure.

Answer 4

There is a difference between "breaking" and "training." The old school cowboy way is breaking. Fortunately, cowboys are a rare breed these days.

Answer 5

Geez, way to not earn the horses trust.  I have never seen anyone 'break' horses this way.  I have worked with some old fashioned people too.  While I might not always agree with some of their ways (everyone trains differently) they NEVER used tactics such as these to subdue a horse.  I hope this relic stays in his closest and maybe he will think twice about offering young, impressionable girls, his opinion.  Christ, I work with a guy right now that could be Wild Bill Hickok himself and he has the patience of a saint and some of the softest hands I have ever seen on a man.  You are not alone in thinking this M.

EDIT:  Dielle has a great point about NH, I don't pussyfoot around horses.  Good answers about the old 'cowboy way.'  I guess some habits are hard to break.

Answer 6

Unfortunately, yes, some "old school cowboys" still train just like that. They learned it from their father who learned it from their father...etc. They trained like that back in the 1800's because these cowboys lived on ranches that had hundreds of horses and they had to break 8/day or more! They were more concerned with quantity rather than quality.

I live in a small ranching community that still has PLENTY of "old school cowboys" roaming around "breaking" their colts and beating the heck out of them. Some people train like that unfortunately. I've gotta vouch for cowboys though, not all of them are just beating their horses. The ranch I live on firmly believes in a soft hand and letting the horse figure out the right answer on their own.

People should definitely view some of the answers to their questions with discretion and pick the best answer that will ensure their safety and their horses safety!

Answer 7

When I started in horses, the "old ways" were the only ways around.  Snubbing to a post was the fastest way around things and if the horse couldn't get far from the post, the horse couldn't get itself or you into trouble.  

Back then, out of 75 head of horses, perhaps 30 were under the age of 5 but ALL went quiet on Earl's rent string.  Earl had a TALL bullpen (It wasn't round and was perhaps 7' tall with a loading shute on one end and a snubbing post in the middle.  Earl put anything and everything in there from young horses to get "broke" to his BIG santa gertrudes bulls.

BUT Earl turned out horses that were quiet, kind and I never saw one of them afraid of people.  I watched him stand there with a whip in hand and "dare" a set in her ways haul back to go pull...  She stood there quivering, but NEVER made a move.

In the past 4 decades I've wished that I could grab Earl and have him talk to some of these folk who want to "cure" a bad horse with kindness and patience.  I knew one about 6 years ago that the owner "tried" to ride him out and never suceeded and finally ended up giving the horse away to some gal who in turn sold the horse to a young girl who ended up getting killed on the horse.

There's a BIG difference in having to reschool a horse and "breaking" it.  Snubbing posts are a good thing, the horse can't go anywhere and can't hurt itself or you.  Stud chains help when a spoiled horse isn't going to listen anyother way (I have a gelding that for over a year, anytime I did anything with him I used a shank.).

When a horse is violent, there's few ways you can reschool a horse and NOT get hurt.

Answer 8

Old school as in before animal rights laws.

Answer 9

haha, CNSd--that reminds me of waht we do.  We have this one little pony, starting to get her use to going forward, she doesnt seem to like that so first my barn had me walk in front of her on my horse which worked a little, and then we talked about hooking her up to Princess, our very large carriage percheron.   haha.  Force really gets you no where with horses.  It will cause more problems in the long haul I think.

Answer 10

You have basically answered your own question here...It is all about force!

I'm not saying some of their techniques don't work, they do...but we as trainers have evolved and realized there are much kinder ways of going about training horses. They simple refuse to take the time to learn/re-learn these ideas. They want it done NOW...and there is just really no such thing as a 30-day "breaking", it's a crutch. It isn't even about BREAKING their spirit, its about modeling it into something great. If you take away the horse's spirit you also take away alot of their heart and I don't care who the trainer is...the heart of these animals is what has drawn us to them in the first place.

Answer 11

I'm not fond of being rough with animals.  I won't balk at giving my horse a quick smack if he tries to bite me, but as for training, there are so many ways to do things that don't involve harming the horse.  I usually give the horse two options....the easier one being to cooperate, the more difficult or tiresome one to be continuing whatever antic they are doing.  If I'm starting a young horse, and he wants to buck, pull up his face, drive him forward, and let him lope until he's tired, and then start over again.  I don't need to spur the heck out of him to get the result, I let him figure out he can behave, or work harder.

For a horse that rears, release the rein, drive forward with legs, if no response, a quick smack on the butt with a crop or the end of your reins, and then back to work.

I've seen horses even at shows with scabs on their sides from spurs.  Its disturbing to say the least.  I like to think that I'm a good horse owner, and that my horse is happy.  I would never do anything to intentionally harm him.  I've trained multiple horses in the past that have gone on to show at the breed level, and have never had to use any "old school" methods to get them there....just time, patience, and playing with their minds a bit!

Answer 12

Before people realized that not only humans felt pain and fear.

It is horrible i agree.

Answer 13

If that's what "old school" means, then I guess that term is synonymous with "moronic", "ignorant" and "lazy".  

I hasten to add that training methods like that appear to be misdirected displays of imagined manhood, much like the dangling testicles some people attach to the trailer hitches of their trucks.  ...Hmm, did I go too far?  Sorry, that's just how I see it.

Answer 14

I have seen training done like that before, it is also known as "cowboying" the horse. The manner is rough and it is meant to scare the horse into submission making it feel like there is no other option. On the other hand I also feel that natural horsemanship is too soft like old school is too rough. I appreciate the philosophy of Endo! He treats the horses kindly and just uses persistence until the horse gets it right. his motto is never get off the horse when it acts up because that is an opportunity to fix the problem.

Most horses trained "old school"  will eventually stop trusting people, and if they aren't kept in that fear mode then they will stop responding and learn very dangerous habits. These are the horses that can barely stand to have their side touched with your feet, the ones that go ballistic if you touch their head or make too fast of a move. And in some cases the ones that refuse to be caught ever again.

Answer 15

I've seen some people break their horses like that, they just wear the poor horse to death, or beat them, it's horrible. Actually, I'm in a H/J community, and of course, everything has to be perfect, so this one horse would buck after a certain jump, and refuse to jump, his owner would just race this poor horse around the course again and again until he jumped it. He would jump it, but his form or something wasn't correct,s o around and around he'd go. When he finally did it, he got a pant, and it was back to work on his flat work. He finally got done after two hours of cantering around. He was sweating so badly after, poor thing.

I was always taught that if the horse doesn't get it right, you are supposed to bring it back to do the one thing they didn't get right, you're supposed to be persistant with them, my trainer always told me "Horses look for that 'release' in pressure in the reins." as their reward ors omething. I don't know, I think that seems pretty cruel with the way that those people are training.