Pot odds on middle or bottom pair?

Question

Hi all, I was wondering about a certain situation when you don't have top pair or a good draw. For example, lets say somebody bets who usually has A + garbage. You call with j10. Flop comes down AJ7. He bets.

My question is: at what pot odds should you call with middle or bottom pair? Does this change based on whether this is post flop or post turn?

Answer 1

I do not think pot odds matter in this situation.  If his betting pattern matches that which you have already oberved (i.e. he is betting as if he has A x), then you need to fold.  "Not calling a raise isonly a small mistake..."

Answer 2

You are talking about calling because you are unsure if the guy has an ace. What you need to do is raise after he bets. That will tell you whether he has the ace or not. That raise is a small investment as it will save you money calling down the turn and river with 2nd pair. I am under the assumption this person is not a good player if he usually plays ace rag

Answer 3

If he has a pair of aces you have 5outs and need 9 to 1 odds to see the turn card.

(2Jacks and 3tens)

Its very rare your going to get these odds so if you think they have an ace fold.

I would only call with this hand if I thought my opponent was bluffing and I have position.

This is called floating, if your opponent bets the flop with any hand after raising preflop (C-bet) but is not prepared to bluff a 2nd time on the turn (double barrel) then you could call with your pair of jacks and when he checks the turn bet and take the pot from him.

But unless you have a very good read that their bluffing and aren't likely to double barrel just fold which is what you will do 90% of the time

Answer 4

I'm not sure odds are too much of an issue here.  You have the second best hand.  You are playing someone who often holds an ace, so your only hope of winning is to convince him that you have a better kicker or something better than a pair.

The other slim chance for you is another jack falling, or a ten.  This is five outs, and you hit about one in five times by the river.  The problem is if he gets lucky and pairs his kicker three of your outs could be negated.

So if you put him on an ace, folding may be the best option here.  A player who likes naked aces is hardly going to be the kind of player to fold when he pairs his ace.

Answer 5

When figuring pot odds you need to KNOW that if you make your hand it is going to be good.  

Since you are talking about second or bottom pair even if your hand improves there is chance that it might not be enough to win the hand.

You've put your opponet on Ace rag because you've seen he likes to play Ace rag.  Well players that like to play Ace rag also like to play good aces too.

If he's playing AJ you could be drawing to runner T's, Or if he's playing AT or A7 you are drawing to a Jack.  Also, there is a straight draw on the board, how do you know he's not playing KQ, the T comes to give you 2 pair and it could give him the straight.

This is why you need to just fold in these spots, because you have no idea where you are at, you could catch a card you think just won the pot, but in fact it was the card that is going to break you.

If you've noticed that your opponet likes to play weak aces or you've noticed a trend.  Try and find a better spot to get his money.  For example, wait until you have a good ace, flop the ace and charge him a premium for playing bad cards.

Answer 6

if you put him on A-x, then you would have five outs to the best hand...using the percentage formula on the flop(outs x4+1), you would have around a 21% chance of winning, which means you would need around 4-1 pot odds to justify calling...if it's on the turn, then the percentage is cut in half, so you have about a 10% chance of winning, meaning you would need 9-1 pot odds

however, pot odds really aren't the issue here, as you will rarely be receiving this good a price...if you know you have the worst hand and you are up against a player who is good enough to know what a legitimate-sized bet is, then you will be folding every time

Answer 7

Using the 2-4 rule to figure your odds the answer is this.  you have 6 outs to win.  2 jacks and 4 tens.  the odds you hit on the with two cards to go  are 24% or 3:1.  the odds you hit on the river are 12% or  7:1.  You need better pot odds than your actual odds to make this a good call.

Answer 8

Let's assume your opponent has an Ace, since he's likely to raise with any Ace. You need another Jack or a Ten to catch up. The odds of hitting a Jack or Ten on the turn is approximately 12%. I wouldn't worry about odds for the entire hand because if you miss the J or T on the turn and he bets out, unless he bets a tiny amount, you'll probably be forced to call.

If his bet is approximately 12% of the pot or less, you may call, but it is very speculative. If he is a loose donkey, you may call slightly more liberally (20% pot bet) because of the implied odds (if you hit, you will get paid out a lot if he is loose).

But overall, if you think he has an Ace and an Ace flops, you want to keep that pot small. Folding is not a bad play.