Pretty obvious idea for fighter jets...?

Question

We see it over and over again; two planes in a dogfight. Each pilot jockeying for position to line up behind his opponent and fire guns or missles. That being the case, I've long wondered why planes have ordnance systems that fire BACKWARDS. A couple of radar-guided missles would be perfect for taking out a jet coming up behind you because their radar is pointed right at you. A rear-facing 30mm cannon would be an effective deterrent to them getting behind you in the first place. Why hasn't this been done?

Answer 1

The Russians experimented with this about 15 years ago.

There are three problems:  weight, weapons employment, and the physics of missile launch.

The weight issue is that one needs a duplicate (redundant) search and tracking system, pylons and extra missiles.  The employment issue is that now you've got 2xmissiles that can ONLY be used when someone's behind you.  As a fighter guy, well an old fighter guy, I want those 2xmissiles facing ahead, so I can use them offensively.

The guns issue is frankly obsolescent in a defensive context; all I have to do is launch at 1nm or greater and negate his defensive systems.  Remember that it's more than just the gun, you need space for ammunition, and a firecontrol system.  The additional space and weight detracts from other weapons/fuel I could be using offensively.

AFA the physics, one is launching a missile not with closure as one does with a frontal aspect (my TAS is added to the missile at launch effectively increasing its range), but subtracted; the missile is moving 180 degrees opposite from its launcher,and the motor has to overcome this to track.  I also need to design the pylons to eject the missile such that it stays away from my exhaust plume (so it doesn't fry the electronics, or the turbulence tumble its guidance system).

It's much more cost and weight effective to disrupt the bandit's firecontrol, and the missiles electronics via ECM, and expendables like chaff and flares...

Answer 2

I guess my answer is very simple. Do you want to be the pilot that lets the enemy line up behind you so you can take what would probably be a very lucky shot in the dark at best????

Answer 3

Tail radars/warning systems are available in modern jet fighters which warn the pilot of 'bogeys' coming from behind. While 'friendlies' are ignored, the systems inform the pilot of the degree of the imminent threat and compute the closure speeds etc., and even suggest the most appropriate weapon to use. Further, flares/chaff dispensers/jammers are also available on board to take care of weapons already fired by the bogey. All these measures adequately take care of the threat from the tail making rearward firing guns/missiles redundant. Finally, these systems are lighter and also ensure that the pilot's attention is not unduly distracted.

Answer 4

when it comes to aircraft - everything is a compromise.  ie you can carry max weapons or max fuel, but not both.

missiles cost heaps. And  rear firing missiles assume you are going to sit around while the enemy lines up behind you.

Answer 5

there is one other issue that Jim, our retired F4 guy, didnt touch on. even with todays fighters, you have an over load of information being directed at you, and trying to line up a shot with rear facing guns or missiles would only add to that over load, as well as distract you from what is going on in front of you. and having a second crewman doesnt help. while having a rear facing defensive system is an intriguing idea, it just isnt practical. it is tough enough to line up a shot on your opponent when you are facing forward. now try facing forward and line up a shot on an opponent behind you. and remember that both of you are maneuvering for a shot, and trying to avoid being shot at the same time.

Answer 6

WEIGHT and practicality. fighters hate excess weight a rearward radar is a lot of unwanted weight as well as the rearward weapon is dead weight unless you get someone on your tail. the idea has been used before they call these planes targets and failures examples are the Bf-110,Me-210,ME-410,Defiant. As for the gun idea it's hard enough to maneuver your plane never mind aiming your rear gun and automating the gun adds huge weight and drag penalties That is why you see such systems on bombers only and even there the bombers now aday don't use them as they are seen as obsolete and dead weight the can go to jamming and chaff systems instead.

Answer 7

Most of the reasons for not having rearward facing ordanance have already been covered by previous posts, but here are a couple of other issues.

Firstly - to be able to use radar guided weapons, you need to be able to see behind you to acquire and designate a target. Therefore you need a radar with the ability to scan behind you - military aircraft radars generally scan in a forward arc only. You can't scan behind you, as all that you will see is the radar return from your own aircraft - and you will also irradiate the aircrew.....

Cannons are utterly useless in modern day air combat, and rear facing heat seaking missiles are also impractical - the infra red emissions from enemy aircraft behind would be obscured, making the only viable target being the (frictionally heated) leading edge of the wings.

The most important point to note however, is that in modern day air combat the likelihood of ever having an enemy aircraft in close proximity to your 6 o'clock is remote. All air combat is now conducted Beyond Visible Range (BVR) - by which the general aim is you kill your enemy before he sees you, or knows you're there. Modern medium range air-to-air missiles have a kill range of over 50 miles.

One other point - I cant ever see rearward facing weaponry ever being embraced - however the Typhoon aircraft uses a Helmet Mounted Symbology System that enables the pilot to shoot "off boresight". This means that where ever the pilot is looking, he can designate a target and shoot at it. Not quite rearwards facing, but means that you dont have to point the aircraft towards your target.

Answer 8

Because you shouldn't let the bad guy get behind you in the first place?

Besides, how many dogfights actually happen in this age of beyond visual range (BVR) engagements? Pop your favorite brand of air to air missile at the bad guy and carry on whatever you were doing.

Answer 9

too  heavy. I  like these easy ones.

Answer 10

Please note rear facing, 50 caliber, X 4, machine guns on B-52's