Question about horse training tools.....?

Question

Hi, I have been on this forum for over a year and have noticed a negativity from some about using tools ie, running martingales, draw reins, side reins, spurs, cavesons, crops or whips, twitches, lip chains ect I have been a professional for over 30+ years and have used all of these tools very successfully. there are sooo many great knowledgeable, professional people on here...sovereign, BB, Mule, Lisa M, Rosi M, American, ajierene, jeff, john r, paintgirl kevin ect ,sorry if I didnt name you......you know who you all are. that truly "get it" about training.....I feel If tools are used properly to teach flexibility, softness, collection, balance and or teach manners ect.. used at the right time in the right manner for the right period of time to achieve desired results....so what is so wrong with it and why such adamant refusal of not using them?

Answer 1

I agree that these tools can and will be helpful-if used properly. Unfortunately, they fall in the hands of "trainers" who either don't know how to use them properly, use them to an extreme, or straight up don't know what they're doing to begin with.

But in the hands of the right person, who know's what they're doing, the tools can be (and are) very usefull and effective.

Answer 2

Me and my mum use these reguarly to train my TB mare. the only one's we don't use are spurs and whips and crops coz she doesn't need them. my Aussie riding pony does though and i have used them on her for ages! I was shown how to use them proply. i've seen people mistreat horses with these tools.

I think people dislike them because they think that we don't use them right and that means that we're hurting them. Also some people just hear the word 'whip' and jump to conclusions and think we are gonna hit them repeatedly and hard. usually all it takes is a tap on the bum or shoulder.

Answer 3

training tools can be usefull in the right hands but for the unexperienced they can be torture for a horse,knowing the limits and how to use them is only half of the training with tools,knowing how long to use them and how much pressure is the other half.there are reasons for all of these training tools and unless you understand their purpose and the mechanics of a horse you have no need for them because you will only confuse your horse and turn minor problems into major problems.

edit:i have a barn full of training tools,some i use some i dont and some i bought just for one horse then never used it again.i never ride without spurs (whether i need them or not)i dont use crops or whips because i ride with long reins and it is just something else to get tangled up when roping,i was born on a ranch and have had over 300 horses on the ranch in my lifetime from minis to drafts.i am 43 years old and have been riding since i was 3.i was tought how to train horses by real working cowhands who make their living on horseback and didnt have the luxury or money of having someone else train their horses,most werent registered horses and some were just downright ugly but every one of them knew their job with the help of consistant training and the proper use of training tools by the people who knew how to properly use them.

those of you who are so dead set against using them,dont ! it just makes it harder for the rest of us to have to retrain your horse when you give up.

Answer 4

I don't like using those things. i think if you use them you're a bad horseman and don't know enough about horses!

And to Ziggybad... Some devices can be abusive and mean no matter who the person handling them is, trust me I know!!

Yeah right!! You're the dumbass and I do know what I'm talking about!!! I've been riding for over 5 YEARS!!!!! And I've never needed to use any of thet ****!!!!!! You're an idiot and YOU don't know what you're talking about!!! Yoou are stupid!

bluesagebadger--- So what if you've been riding longer it doesn't mena you know more stuff! I know a LOT about horses and train them and give lessons and don't need any devices to do it!! BLAH! IN YOUR FACE!!!!!! and...

--NO tb jumper I AM NOT in once a week lesson i have 2 horses of my own, thank you very MUCH!!!

Ugh you guys are mean and rude and stupid... and I used to like you black bunny and blue sage badger but you guys are dumb now. eww i'm deleting you from my contact snad blocking you!!! So HA!

Answer 5

What I have found is that a trainer who is capable of training a horse without the use of these tools is the only one who is skilled enough to be using them.  If a trainer has never proven himself capable of doing it without using the devices, etc. he is unskilled and shouldn't be using them to compensate for his own lack of skill.

So, in the hands of a skilled trainer, these tools will be properly used as an assist, not as a replacement for proper training.

You've listed flexibility, softness, collection, balance and manners as examples.  All of those can be and are trained without the use of assistive devices by many trainers, and those same trainers rarely resort to the tools you describe...not never...but rarely.

EDIT:  Just read through answers below...another thing to add is that often when we are critcizing the use of these aids is when someone whom we know is not skilled enough is being advised to use them to fix the problems they present on this site.  Half the time it's kids just finding their way that are being advised to try this or that device....if they were already skilled trainers they wouldn't be asking the questions.

Answer 6

Bloddy h**l WTF was up with Luney Tunes? Weird... anyway I am in agreenece that tools when placed in the proper hands can be great things. For example there is a product I now carry in my store and use myself called the Noavel headstall. if you are properly taught how to use it it's awesome. Placed in the wrong hands......... well you know. Anyway yeah  training tools can coem in handy. And I'm sorry but anyone that says they have NEVER used some form o aid while riding or working a horse is LIEING even if they have been riding for 5 or more years...... A lunge whip is an aid, if you lunge the horse without a lunge whip but use the end of the line of a lead then suprise that turns into an aid. a bit is an aid or tool. I've been riding since i was 5 and have owned horses for the last 15 years I've used ALL the items you mentioned and STILL do. I know how to properly use thema nd liek you see the good in them , lord i'm gonna be redundant if i keep on so I'm gonna stop. but yes i agree with you 100%

Luney unfortunately for you you have now recieved my big fat red dot b/c well i thought you were a mature person after your last lil rant where you actually bucked up and apologized BUT I was SADLY mistaken.

Answer 7

I'm just commenting...

I do like gallops answer.  I have used everything mentioned.  I am not a trainer...only for my own.  I have helped others with their horses.

I don't take too much offense at people who disagree...unless they are running me down.  That I do take offense to.  I know how my hands are and I don't use something I don't know how to.

For example...Draw reins...I own a set.  I used them recently.  I have a star gazer gelding.  Just would not bring the head down and collect.  He will just stiffen his neck and sull up.  Pulling to the side doesn't work either.  He can turn his nose to your knee and still sull up on you.  Weaker people...he just pulls his head back straight.  I have worked on this for a long time.  Finally put them on him.  After 15 or 20 minutes I go back to regular reins...which I leave attached to the snaffle.  Once again requesting a collected gait.

I don't agree with 'using' the tools to 'make' the horse behave.  I will probably explain this badly...using them because you've never learned to try something else...besides the tool.  Or using the tool without introduction.  Like tieing the horse into a head set with no escape.  That's just lazy and not taking the time to train for what you want.

People judging me on the use of my tools...because they saw someone misuse it...is annoying...and wrong.  But it IS true...that my tools can be misused.  And if they are being used...because the person knows NO other way, and doesn't want to consider any other way, or even TRY another way...then I see that as close minded.  That said...when I have run out of options...and need the tool...I WILL use it...

I don't know if this 'answer' makes any sense....

**EDIT...I also agree that 'children' or people with no clue how to use the tools...should not be advised to use them.  Even something as 'simple' as spurs or crops.  Use those on an animal that has never felt them...and you are on them...you better be able to handle the reaction of the horse.  This again is where 'introduction' comes in...not just going right into using them before the horse knows what they are...

Rebel...yeah...mine's bad when HE is done working.  Or if he's too full of energy...

****EDIT...DO NOT LISTEN TO ME!!  I am a BAD HORSEMAN and do not know enough about horses!!!

*after all...I use red halters on a sorrel horse!*

*I just wanted 2 points*

ROFLMAO!!!

I know Ziggy...I am a POOR excuse for a horse owner.  I have no fashion sense.  That's it...I'm getting out my RED saddle pad, my RED breast collar, and my RED girth, put them on my horse...and take photos of WHAT NOT TO DO!!  Think that's a legitimate Y/A question???

***EDIt...Luney...we are not dumb.  That's the whole problem here.  YOU accused US of being bad horsemen.  We just don't have the inclination to tolerate that kind of disrespect.  Telling me you don't like me...has no effect on me.  You are not the first...and will not be the last to have that opinion.  You are welcome to your opinion...and I will state mine.  

I take offense at your opinion of my skills and knowledge...because you made a personal attack.  Believe I stated that info in my original answer.  Did you think I was kidding??

**EDIt...oooooo, I'm in trouble now!!  Guess I know where my thumbs down will be coming from on all my answers!!

Blue...you're mean, and it's not nice to pick on people who have no fashion sense.  Maybe I'm colorblind and thought it was.....NEON ORANGE!!  I KNOW that color looks good on sorrels...*giggle*

Sorry Eqquus...this seems to have gotten way off topic!

Answer 8

Tools are effective and fine to use when they are in the right hands.  It is people that abuse them that make other people think they are bad.  There is nothing with a caveson, or even a whip, when they are used properly.  If you sit there whacking a horse, then people are going to think "Oh, that's what a whip's for?  That's abusive." And so many times, it isn't that the rider is trying to be mean, they just don't know what they are doing.  I don't use spurs because I can't trust myself to not accidentally stab a horse with them.  People see the people who do not know what they are doing and believe that tool to be bad.  Kind of like pitbulls. They get a bad rap because some idiots fight them.  That must make them all murderous dogs, right? Or racing.  Many people are against horse racing because they think it is abusive.  In reality, there is nothing wrong with galloping a horse down a track and one of the main reasons so many horses die is that people race them too young.  Eight Belles was too young to be racing and her ankles couldn't withstand the high intensity sport when they weren't even finished developing.  People give these training tools a bad name.  If there were more people who knew what they were doing, I think people would become more accepting of them.

Answer 9

Tools...for example, a hammer-works great for pounding nails but if you don't know how to use it, you will end up with a sore thumb.

I think the adamant refusal of not using them comes from their trainer saying not to or it isn't in a HORWSE question.  Then they complain about "my horse doesn't listen to me how do i get him to lower his head can't catch him refuses jumps bucks won't pick up his feet" bla bla bla...

I like the way you said "used at the right time in the right manner for the right period of time to achieve desired results"

I totally agree!

Answer 10

Successful horse training can be just as easily done without training instruments. Plain and simple. Wether you're "knowledgeable" in using them or not, they're not necessary and I consider it an easy way out. Also, tools such as draw reins or the similar "training fork", depending on how the horse is built, even used the right way, can really mess up its growth and its muscles.

Answer 11

Great answer Black Bunny... Couldn't have said it any better.

All of the tools mentioned get a bad name because people see them being misused ALL the time. People abuse the tool and make it more of a necessity then an aid. If you "need" to use the tool because you know no other way, you shouldn't be using it.

I feel another reason people don't agree with using the tools or have a problem when someone else does it is because they are truly uneducated about how they work, what they're for and how they can improve your horse. They haven't taken the time to understand each tool and research.

I personally prefer not to use artificial aids, but I have at one time or another used all of the ones you've mentioned and with good reason.

ANY tool can be misused and cause your horse pain and discomfort. Halters, lead ropes, all those "natural horsemanship" sticks and ropes.... They can all be used to "abuse" the animal. Whether or not they do is dependent on the person at the other end of them.

**Edit**

Oh wow Luney... you got me there. You obviously know what you're talking about, right?

Dumba$$.

*sigh*... I don't have to say anything... You've already made yourself look like a moron...

**Edit**

Ayla, great point! Haha You sooo funny!!

Blue Sage-- Lmao. You better not mess with Luney... She's been riding for 5 years AND trians horse AND gives lessons and blah blah blah...

**Edit**

BSB-- HAHA!! I don't want to imagine it... Scary. Luckily I don't think training breyer horses counts!! Lmao

Equus-- I'm suprised you named me at all... I just joined the Y/A community and don't consider myself half as good as the people you named before. I feel honored! LOL

Black Bunny, red halters on sorrel horses???!!!! Shame. Haha

Answer 12

The main gadgets that I have a problem with are draw reins and Chambons/ De Gouges. I can tell when I am on a horse that has been ridden in draw reins improperly because they are "afraid" of the contact. The second I pick up the reins their back goes hollow, neck comes up and they tuck their heads in and get very tense. And when you think about it, there are so so many horses that had problems with coming into a frame that get over it without the use of draw reins, just through proper training. I feel the same about Chambons/De Gouges. They also force the horse's head into a position that may not be natural for him, or he may not be ready for in his training, which, again, creates the hollow back and high, curled up neck. However, if a professional uses these and knows exactly when to let go and when to use them and how much to tighten them, then I don't have a moral problem with that, I just don't like the idea of forcing the horse into any certian position.

That said, I have no problems with side reins (unless somebody is riding in them because it is dangerous if they fall off or the horse spooks or bucks or anything, or if they are tightened too much too soon), spurs (if they are used humanely and don't just constantly dig at the horse), I have absolutely no problem with cavesons, crops and whips (if they are used properly), twitches, chains, or whatever. It comes down to if they are used properly and in a way that helps the horse with its training and keeps things safe and constructive for the horse and rider.

Answer 13

i also have used many of these tools with great success, but on this forum you cannot know the (true) ability of the horse and rider, and I'm leery of suggesting some because your not sure how they are going to be used... if there is another way to accomplish what is needed without using them, i suggest that first.

i feel bad telling someone to use spurs who doesn't know how.. the horse might have to suffer because of my suggestion..

EDIT: thought of more to write..

there are some things i wont approach without these tools, like injections into a joint, why bother risking a horses joint when you can put on a stud chain and lip twitch? the horse has 20 min of uncomfortableness as opposed to a life permanently lame..

i also never lead my horse without a chain over his nose-why? because i know what he can do, and i know hes bigger then me.  75% of the time hes perfect, but i like to be well prepared the 25% when he decides he can move! (or kick, or attack, or strike out, or bite... you know..)

i also never ride (unless we're in a dressage test) my horse without a running martingale... once again, i know he has bolted with me, i know he puts his head up in the air and open his mouth so the bit doesnt effect him, and i know how bad it is to fall off a galloping horse... i figure it doesn't do anything untill it needs to and when its needed it works effectivly.

sorry, i have another one!

i also have noticed people attacking you when you ask to use a bit heavier then a snaffle.  I love my snaffle, i'm never going to permantly change my horse out of his, and i think every horse should stive to stay in one forever, and strive to get into one if they can.. but once again, i know my horse isn't very safe jumping, and i prefer to have a pelham for doing it (and riding out cross country and on the track).  i use the snaffle only untill he decides to not listen, i apply a little curb rein and he remembers i'm up there.  why bother getting hurt? I'm using it properly and only when needed.  

....But at the same time, i've seen people not even put a snaffle rein on and just ride the curb hard-thats not fair!!

i can jump my horse in my snaffle, but its stressful and dangerous and completly not worth it.

but, there are also some things i would try and not use, like draw reins, i'm sure they're great for some of you, but i prefer to work a horses head down with relaxation. but i'll admit, what i do has worked for the horses i have, i haven't had one yet where this doesn't work.. but the day i know my way isn't going to work i'm going to use what i have to..

"10 minutes of good work is better then an hour of doing nothing"

great question!

luney- 5 years is nearly nothing, still in once a week lessons, i assume? and riding nice schoolies?  when was the last time you got on a so called "dangerous" horse and made it safe?  if you said never you hae no right to comment.

EDIT: o no guys! luney doesn't wanna be friends with you anymore! what are you going to do without you being in her contactss /=  (hahahaha, lmao)

and i've said it once, and i'll say it again, the amount of money you spend or the number of horses you have DOES NOT equate to riding ability.

you just sound like a fool.

Answer 14

I have used everyone of those at one time. I think people who say they are awful are uneducated on those tools. If used the way they should be they are not cruel.  I do not have to use these tools often, just as you said the right time. & I think they should be use by people have been riding 8yrs or more. & I agree that they should not be used by children.

Answer 15

I agree.  The reason most don't seem to like training tools/ aids is probably because they don't gets its actual purpose or they have seen it used incorrectly.  I have a few of these tools, and they have helped me handle some of our hard to handle horses(My dad trained TBs and he liked the big crazy ones that no one could handle)  I remeber the first time I used a lip shank, my hand got so tired, but the horse, 3 yr old gelding by Carnivalay, was half crazy, and was too hyper, so instead of just walking he half passed 6 rounds around the barn.  usually we did 12 rounds, but that was too much for me.  

I will admit, now that i am down to one horse, I don't use too many tools(altho I plan to invest in some draw reins, my horse works inverted too much)

I don't see anything wrong with training tools if used by someone who knows how to use them, i.e. not some ammie western kicking the c**p to make a jog that should be slow, faster.

BB--- I have a star gazing gelding too!, he picked it up actually recently when I changed his bit,  he only does it when I wanted to keep going and he didn't, with the old bit back he is doing a little better, but I still plan on getting draaw reins. he needs to collect a little more.

Answer 16

We have rope horses & we always tack up with a PROPERLY adjusted tie down.  We ride with spurs, but we do NOT jab the horses with them.  They have a very blunt rowel, but at least when they are needed they are there.  We know how to ride our horses & we do NOT have heavy hands & we do NOT ride with our legs into our horses.

We do not use the other things you listed & as far as I know have never needed to.

I agree that many if not most times these devices are used by idiots who do not have any business owning a horse, let alone training a horse or by kids who have no clue what they are, why they are used, what they are meant to accomplish or how to use them.

All 8 of our horses were trained by a Native American friend of the family who could take any horse & make it amazing by working with it.  Unfortunately we lost him almost 2 years ago.

Anyway, I think it would be best to try to not use some of these items without first trying everything else & ONLY!!!  ONLY!!! if you know what they are supposed to be used for & how to PROPERLY use them.

OOPPPSSSS!  I have used lunge whips & other types of whips for various reasons...

**EDIT**

Luney Tunes....There is a name WELL chosen.  Shoo!!  Go away!!

**EDIT**

Oh NO!!  Look out everyone!!!  Luney has been riding for a whole 5 years!!!  My goodness, she knows soooo much.  Probably more than any of us who was raised with horses & those of us who have been riding for what???? 20, 30 years!!!

She must know EVERYTHING by now!!!

Don't mess with me kid!  You will NOT win!!!

**EDIT**

TB....HA HA HA!!!  nice one!!!

Ayla....I agree & like what you said about it not being a howrse question....FUNNY!!!

**EDIT**

Yeah, sure you do Luney....Teaching the mechanical horses outside the Wal-Mart to run faster by pulling back in the reins doesn't count.  Our youngest son, who is 7 could wipe the arena up with you & his knowledge comes from REAL experience, not from reading books & watching RFD t.v.

**EDIT**

Ziggy.....Can you imagine the moron who would allow an immature child like Luney to train a horse or give lessons? HA HA HA!!!!  This tweenie has never come across a horse that needs training that's for sure & can you just see the screwed up kids & horses coming away from those lessons???  HA HA HA!!!!!

**EDIT**

You like me!!!  You really like me!!!!

LOL!!  Don't worry about it Eqquss, there ARE so many knowledgable people whom I admire & appreciate reading their answers & I cannot remember all of them either.

**EDIT**

See BB....Ziggy agrees with me!!!!! LMAO!

Bunny is sooooo FUNNY!!!!

**EDIT**

Oh! OUCH!!  I'm wounded Luney.  I told you not to mess with me, but this is what happens when you answer a question by attacking people.

**EDIT**

I saw that question to Eqquss!!  Luney is such a good trainer she can't even handle her OWN horse & then blames the horse when things don't go her way.  A TRUE example of a green rider for sure.  A knowledgable, experienced rider would not have blamed the horse.

**EDIT**

Eqquss, I apologize also for getting so far off topic.  Maybe one of these days I'll learn to keep my mouth shut.  Yeah, like that will happen!!!

**EDIT**

John I agree.....

And on the many horses that have passed throught the ranch gates over the years.  Many were not registered & some were down right ugly.  I HEAR YA!!

Answer 17

I think it's because they can be easily mis-used in the hands of an amateur.

I'd love to see them truck around a 3'9 jumper course on my horse without a martingale-he goes in a D-ring port(doesn't like the tongue pressure of other bits) and he's usually very well behaved schooling, but as soon as we get in the ring he wants to GO-the running martingale not only will keep the reins around his neck in the event that I fall, but it prevents him from getting too out of control.

I don't have an issue about these tools being used properly-but I have a BIG issue if I see them being used improperly. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of draw-reins, I think more can be accomplished without them(atleast on the horses and disciplines I know). That being said, I think(again properly utilized) side-reins have always been a wonderful stepping stone to teach horses to accept contact and realize what they need to do.

Answer 18

I have gotten this a lot because I will not get on a horse, with out spurs. I have a theroy with them, its better to have them and never need them, than need them and not have them. I don't go around jabbing the ribs out of my horse. Infact I think I have only had to realy use them once with her. There are many many great training tools out there that if use wrong, will ruin a horse. Some people do not use bits at all. Thats fine, but a mechanical hackamore can be just as bad as highport long shanked bit.

Infact the "All knowing" Parelli endorses, snaffles, and tom thumbs infact. Although he calles them "engaging bits", AKA Tom Thumb, AKA Venesualian Shanked Snaffle. It was in a article in the June edition of Texas Horse Talk. My point of this is terms will change for the same piece of equipment. But without proper research, many things can be misinterpeted. I use terms that many times are much older than I am, because I work with my dad who is edging on 63. Terms change all the time. But people have been dealing with horses for thousands of years. Many training aids have not changed for over 200 years, but the names have. That is why I stress working with more than one trainer, when you want to train horses. You may only use a method, or training aid one time. But it is worth it then, and the worst that can happen is you become a better horseman/horsewoman. And, isn't that what we are all working for her?

Becoming better horse trainer/rider?