Question for those who think women hold all reproductive power?

Question

I am asking this question from a neutral stand point and don't advocate either way of thinking, just looking for insight on this point of view.

I have noticed some feminists in this board, like lotus777one, say that women hold all the reproductive power. That the man has no say in it, it is up to the female if the baby is aborted, born, if birth control is used all that. They basically say that the man is a pawn in reproduction and the women is "the boss." Well, I am wondering if this is true, should men have to pay child support? If it is up to the women and the man has nothing to do with it or no say in it, then it is the womans choice to have the kid, and she makes that choice knowing what is at stake (financially). If the guy has nothing to do with it and is just a "pawn" in the reproductive game, why should he have to support something that he can't control and the female chose for herself?

again, not taking sides, just looking into this thought process.

Answer 1

" have noticed some feminists in this board, like lotus777one, say that women hold all the reproductive power. That the man has no say in it, it is up to the female if the baby is aborted, born, if birth control is used all that."

I've read most of the posts that you're referring to, and I don't recall anyone saying that birth control is all up to the female.  

"If it is up to the women and the man has nothing to do with it or no say in it, then it is the womans choice to have the kid, and she makes that choice knowing what is at stake (financially). '

When a man and a woman lay down and have unprotected s*x, they are (unwittingly or otherwise) making the decision to have a kid.  If you don't want kids, use protection.  There are various forms of birth control. Unfortunately, the only real options of birth control for men are condoms, vasectomies, or abstinence, but they DO have choices.

"If the guy has nothing to do with it and is just a "pawn" in the reproductive game, why should he have to support something that he can't control and the female chose for herself?"

Again, women cannot reproduce by themselves.

I believe that, in instances where the woman say, puts a hole in the condom, that the man should be able to waive his rights (though I don't know why he wouldn't want to be attached to his own child).  Other than that, it was a concious decision made by both parties involved.

Answer 2

Men bear 50% of the responsibility for parenting.  Children are not generated through electrical charges.

But as for the reproductive "power" - let's see, 15 seconds of pleasure vs. nine months of discomfort.  

Yeah, that's a tough one.

"Shoulds" are irrelevant.  Unless and until the courts change the rules, pay for the kids you made.  Or even better, do something instead of complaining and lobby to change the rules yourselves.  

Answer 3

I do agree that women should have control of the contraception, pregnancy and abortion if that is what the woman wants. In terms of should the man pay child support - I would say if the man and woman are married, and there is a birth, he is assumed to be the father and responsible for support. If the parties are formerly married  I would suggest that here too if there is a birth he should have to support the child.

However if the parties have never been married to each other and the male doesn't want to pay support he should use a condom (since I don't know of any other male form of contraception). If it breaks and the woman gets pregnant and decides to give birth, he should not be forced to pay support.

Otherwise if a man has unprotected s*x with a woman he is not married to and he doesn't use a condom  he might be liable for support if she can prove by DNA that the baby is his.  

That is a good reason to use a condom when having s*x with someone you don't want a real relationship with!!!  

Answer 4

Mainly because the chose of s*x is both a man and a women's. So if a women does get pregnant is both of their responsibilities since they both made the chose.

But reproduction power is one thing that men have little or no power on since it is the women's body that goes threw nine months of pregnancy and then the birth. That's mainly the reason why men have no say. The man has the responsibility to either father the child(meaning be there for the child and see them)  or pay child support.



A women has the chose to have the child, the father has the choice to be there and father it. Either way he will have to pay child support if the women decides to have the child because he also made the chose to have s*x.

It is a sad reality that women have the final choice to have the baby even if the man wants to raise the child.  

Answer 5

You know as well as I do, that if males had the option to.... "opt-out" of financial responsibility for the pregnancies they cause, many would, and make absolutely no effort whatsoever for birth-control. This would then put MORE of the responsibility on the female, so she would then have even MORE control over whether or not s*x was going to happen. You think she should take all the risk?

I wouldn't say women hold ALL the power, but they do have controlling interest. They definitely have more power in the process than males, if you don't like it, talk to your local god-thing.

Are people lately jumping all over Lotus because she's not afraid to say it, or because she's right?? She's stating the obvious... obvious to those who actually pay attention...

Condoms WORK. IMHO people shouldn't be having s*x unless they a: have competant birth-control or b: have already discussed what they are intending to do if the outcome is a pregnancy.

Having a baby is one of the most life-altering things a human can do, yet they choose to handle the actual "creative process" so irresponsibly...  If you choose to play Russian Roulette, don't whine when the chamber is loaded...

Answer 6

This is a loaded question I say that not in a negative way but it's been a loaded one for a long, long, long time.

In basic yes we do hold the greater part of the power of reproduction.  It's just a fact of life.  A man does one act in s*x to generate reproduction compared to a woman that does the same act but then continues with that phase with the 9mons and labor.  Then (before the introduction of formula) that act is continued again with the production of milk.  Granted in many cases a "wet-nurse" or even cows milk could be used it was not always available (wet-nurse) and cows milk did not always work.  Thus the greater part of reproduction is with the female and you will note in the whole planet it is that way with most (not all) of life that the female carries more of the reproduction phase than the male.

However that is also off set that during this time the woman is very exposed they needed men for protection and to bring in food at least in the past more primitive basic past.

I tell ya whenever I hear this stuff of who is better, who is smarter etc..blah blah blah I think to myself do people really understand our actual bodies?  How we have evolved?  I mean before science has given us (or many of us) the advantages of manipulating the earth our physical form and differences where meant to be used a the perfect team.  Men are stronger for a reason, their brains work more on logical lines, aggression is higher all to support, feed, protect their families.  Woman more stamina, more multi use problem solvers, more affection and commuciation all to support the family, nurse, clothe, make meals, run the community, make the home, care for the young.

Those are the basics that make us up, put together it makes as perfect a human as can be made.  If you think on it both the strengths and weakness compliement the other.

Now take out the primitive need to basic life.  Food, shelter, protection from the elements and we do not have to depend on these basic functions as we once did.  

Understanding these basic things makes the whole relationship between men and women more understood.  

Also if you look into cultures that really used this unique and powerful relationship to it's fulliest advantages you see a remarkable powerful relationship between the men and women because of one basic and simple concept.  

RESPECT each respected each other as a partner fully they did not say one s*x had more importance of the other but that both were equally valuable and respected.

Folks that is all that is needed in life now, a simple respect and understanding that men and women bring different things to the table both are extremely important in reproduction, raising the children and having a solid relationship I do not believe one s*x is more powerful or more important than the other.

  

Answer 7

First of all, men DO have power over birth control.  Use a condom.  If, for some bizarre reason, she doesn't want you to use a condom, then don't have s*x with her.

Secondly, there really is no good way to give men a chance to opt out of parenthood.  If they are given free reign to do so, there WILL be men who abuse this right and impregnate numerous women without fear of the consequences.  A close friend of mine got pregnant from a one night stand by a guy who took the condom off when she wasn't paying attention.  She now has a 10-year-old son, and she's never seen a penny from him.

If it can happen with the laws in place now, imagine what it would be like without such laws.

Answer 8

It's the lessor of two evils, for there isnt a fair and perfect system....

To force a woman to have an abortion, or force a women to carry the child.  It literally slavery you taking away all of her rights to her own body.

"Legally" there is not a solution to make it fair to both s*x's on this do we keep or do we not keep the child issue.  There maybe some help in the future, for the he wants it she doesn't issue.

on an individual basis i do think the man should be part of the decision process.  Think it's "morally" (used loosely) wrong for a women to have a child or an abortion and not tell or not consider the father.

Child Support. Few things I disagree with the "no child support" or Opt out plan BC in the eyes of society fathers are already just a pay check.  I think this is wrong, horribly wrong.  To reduce fathers to nothing....wont help the situation it will only make it worst for the good fathers out there who want to raise there children.

Birth Control: No it's both partners responsibility to make sure they are practicing safe s*x.  Girls be on something, follow it faith fully. Guys know what your girl is taking, wrap it.  Both should know that nothing is 100% or even 99% like they say on the tv.  There is male bc pills, shots, and patches suppose to come out soon.  So guys will be able to have even more control over this issue.  Plus couples can double, triple up on the bc.

Answer 9

"Womens' right to control their fertility trumps the right of unborn babies to live, but once a child is born, that child's right to have support from both parents trumps the father's right to abnegate responsibility."

You see this is all that's wrong with this line of reasoning, it's your line of reasoning. Imperialising views on others does not make it a right.

No consensus exists that (a) a woman's fertility trumps the right of unborn babies to live. In fact the argument I propound is simply: no one has a proven right to take a life. Show me there is a right. I'm not saying the fetus has a right to life, just that you can't show me you have any right to take it.

(b) The law may agree with you about the right to child support and my solution would be that the law should in fact give social welfare to the  mother and leave it up to the father to decide if he wishes to add support (assuming of course he took adequate steps to prevent the pregnancy to begin with)

Yet the conclusion that because you believe (a)  woman has a RIGHT to do as she pleases = she can also expect child support if her choice is to keep the baby is just totally arbitrary.

I believe it is just all about you, it's pure self-absorption. You want all the opportunities available yet you bear none of the responsibilities that go with your choices.

Answer 10

Google "Choice for Men." It is the basic concept that if women have the choice to forego motherhood through abortion, men should have the same right to forego fatherhood by cutting all ties with the child and having no financial responsibilities.

Answer 11

women hold half of the reproductive power, she can't do it alone she needs the sperm from a guy. i think that abortion should be discussed between both parties involved and that they should come to a mutual decision. since the guy helped, he too should have a say. if the lady became pregnant by an individual who doesn't want the child then she should go ahead and make her decision on her own. that's how i see it

Answer 12

I would have to say that's not too fair in SOME situations.

But in most it is.

Answer 13

It should be the choice of BOTH parents. Either that, or the man should have ZERO responsibility .

That's what a logical person would call "FAIR".  

Answer 14

Women don't hold *all* the reproductive power, but the female share is greater than 50%.  Biology decided this for us, not society, so any argument of *fairness* is moot.

The second part of the discussion involves division of labor.  An infant requires round the clock care, and both mother and baby require food, clothing and shelter for survival.   The traditional division of labor places the direct infant care on the mother and the supporting role on the father.  This is logical when analyzed from a historical perspective -- infant formula has only been around since the 1930's.  Prior to that, the mother was the sole source of infant nutrition unless she enlisted the services of a wet nurse.   Either way, babies were exclusively breast fed.

Recent developments in technology and society have altered the division of labor in a number of ways. Some people see these developments as de-valuing the role of father or even rendering him unnecessary.  This is a sad and dangerous distortion.  

What has actually happened is that societal changes now enable either parent to play either role.   Dads can be primary caregivers while moms go out and earn the paycheck, or couples can follow traditional arrangements.   What does *not* work well is the single parent option.  One person cannot meet all of baby's needs.  Some kind of support system must exist to provide the material needs for the helpless infant and its primary caregiver.  Our current system is to hold the biological father responsible for financial support, the mother receiving full time custody practically by default.

That is the current way things are done.  If you don't like that arrangement, it is your responsibility to avoid impregnating anyone.  

The single parent option arose because people basically suck at long term relationships, and they are not willing to do the work to maintain them. Two generations of kids have grown up with divorce as standard operating procedure, and the current solution seems to be avoiding marriage in the first place.  However, this marriage avoidance has not really had any effect on birth rates...so who is going to take responsibility for those babies?

Answer 15

lotus your the best, you put a smile on my face everytime i read (at least one or two lines) your rants.  wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk women are superior wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk look at how smart I am wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk I need lots of attention wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk won't anyone listen wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk men are scum wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk i'll impress them with all kinds of word wonk wonk wonk

btw I believe men and women have an equal say in matters of reproduction!

I feel a violation

Answer 16

The example given was using sperm donation, and NO, official medical sperm donors do not have to pay child support.

Answer 17

This is a very tricky issue.

I think that abortion should be completely the woman's choice; who else's would it be? The fetus is growing in HER body. She may well take the father's feelings into account, or perhaps the two may come to some sort of agreement, but he shouldn't be allowed to waltz into the medical facility saying "Thou shalt not abort" or "Quick, while her back is turned, perform an abortion!"

Once the child is born, however, things become even more complex. If the man does not have to pay child support if he didn't want the child, it is hearsay whether or not he wanted it born. And child support is not for the mother-- it's for the child, now a separate entity. There have been instances of mothers abandoning their children with the father, though less frequent, and the laws apply to them, too.

Answer 18

I always thought it was the blokes that have the easy way out, they can just do a runner

Answer 19

Very interesting question - A star for you!

As a man, I've often wondered this myself.  The fact that the whole abortion rights argument is that "it's her body - she gets to choose what happens to it" leads to women having the "power."

I've often wondered that, if this argument has a solid foundation why we live in a society where men have a financial responsibility for the woman's decision.  I think that this, like so many other things, is a carry over from days gone by when women didn't work outside the home and therefore were at a financial disadvantage when compared to men.

Of course, there's always the reality that people want power without responsibility that might be driving that as well.

Answer 20

Ah, don't listen to Lotus.  She goes a little overboard with the supremacy talk sometimes.

Anyway, if men stopped having s*x with women today (okay just imagine it for a second), women wouldn't be having any kids anymore.  I think that kind of kills the whole argument right there.

Answer 21

He shouldn't have to.  He should be able to sign over his rights, just like she can (abortion or adoption....sometimes w/o the fathers consent).

Answer 22

Your question is a variation on a perennial question asked here and elsewhere. Usually it is narrowed to the female's right to abortion, but the meaning is the same. I know that you struggled to even admit that females do have more power in this arena, so I consider this to be progress.

In order to be consistent with the reality that women have more reproductive power, more control over whether a child is born, or not born, and when and with whom that child will be made, I must concede that forcing men to pay child support is an unfair double standard. I have said this multiple times and will continue to do so because it is true. It is not, however, the whole truth.

There is a third reality that emerges when a woman decides to allow a pregnancy to come to term and that is that we now have a child who is born and that child has many needs. This issue has been debated by our policy makers and it has been decided that the following cascade of rights exist:

Womens' right to control their fertility trumps the right of unborn babies to live, but once a child is born, that child's right to have support from both parents trumps the father's right to abnegate responsibility.

Mostly the reasoning here is that, while conservatives are happy to spend 52% of the federal budget on using our military to protect our country's (and more specifically, our corporations') interests, those same conservatives are very unhappy to see 11% of the budget go to paying mothers to raise the next generation of workers, consumers and citizens. Therefore, no matter how powerless men may be in certain unfortunate situations (idiotic girls poking holes in condoms), the government would rather fathers foot the bill than tax payers. I disagree with this. That's just me.

On the other hand, we all like to pretend that raising children isn't work, don't we? We like to pretend that it is easy, insignificant, and unimportant. Even if the father is forced to pay child support, he will still be able to go to work, come home, put his feet up, open a beer, and go on with his life. Not so for the mother, who even though she is receiving child support, will generally have to go to work, come home take care of kid(s), etc. So while the father is inconvenienced, the mother is usually more so.

While women have more power over what is going to happen reproductively, because men choose not to control their sexual urges, because it is in her body, etc., it is also true that women have more responsibility as well.

Responsibility and control go hand in hand. It is a double edged sword.

Personally, I am not opposed to any of the following solutions:

1. Women who choose to have a child with a man who has expressed unwillingness prior to s*x (just as a woman can't claim rape if she said yes, but changed her mind after) to become a father, and who has utilized birth control (and we need more options for males) should not be able to collect child support. Perhaps this would cause stupid girls to think twice about being stupid. I'm all for that. But this leaves young innocent children in less than adequate situations.

2. All people can be temporarily sterilized prior to puberty and then have to meet certain basic criteria (no drug addiction, lack of a violent criminal record, a job history, a high school education, and a willing partner of either gender) can have their fertility restored. I know it's draconian and many would object to it, but I do not.

3. The government can subsidize the productive labor of self-selected mothers who are producing the next generation and fathers can content themselves with playing no role other than sperm donor. I am not opposed to this, though many men are.

Whatever we do, it is not going to be perfect and everyone isn't going to be happy. We can approach perfection, never arrive. What we cannot do is pretend that men get to control womens' bodies. Men get to control their own bodies. That's it.

It is important to realize that women do have more control, more power, more responsibility, and make more sacrifices in terms of bringing new life into the world. Nature, or God, or whatever you believe in, has made it this way. It simply is what it is, but if we are to genuinely recognize this reality, we have to also recognize that children should not bear their father's last names. Only in very unique circumstances would that ever be warranted. Certainly, men have no reason to expect a woman to do most of the work, make most of the sacrifices, and then name it after him, as if he were the one taking the loss in earnings potential, risking his life, passing on more of his DNA (google mtDNA before you freak out). In reality women are more central to reproduction, have more power and responsibility and rightfully deserve more credit.

Answer 23

Women do have all the reproductive power. Sadly, generation after generation we continue to raise our daughters in ignorance. If a woman chooses to have a child then she better have a means to support it because as millions of us know you can't always count on the sperm donor to be there financially whether through divorce, death, or indifference. Just that simple. With power comes responsibility.  

Answer 24

Yes, Women hold most of the reproductive power.

Quite a few women that get pregnant don't even tell the respective fathers.

They will either get an abortion, put the child up for adoption or have the child and raise it on their own without help from the father.

Answer 25

Welcome to feminism!

It's not supposed to make sense, you're just supposed to like it!